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Dec 112010

The waiting game being played out between Cliff Lee and the Yankees and Rangers has to be disconcerting to most Yankee fans by now. Recent reports during the winter meetings that he and/or his agent met with the Texas Rangers brass 4 times, and the Yanks only twice, adds further fuel to the fire that he’s leaning toward Texas, or at least giving them every opportunity to come up with an offer he can live with.

To paraphrase the great Football coach Vince Lombardi, Cliff Lee isn’t everything, he’s the only thing. I know that some fans think that the Yanks, with their enormous resources, will find someone comparable who can take the ball every 5th day and give the team a chance to win. Now of course they’ll find somebody, they’re not going to forfeit every 5th game in 2011. You can always find a Chad Gaudin-type floating around in free agency or the waiver wires. Maybe there’s a mid-rotation starter out there to be had via trade from a team like the White Sox, whose GM Kenny Williams is always up for a deal. But the notion that it will be someone comparable to Cliff Lee, someone with top of the rotation ability, is simply unfounded. Or in the case of Zach Grienke, I would argue ill conceived.

With this in mind, I wanted to take a minute to ponder what the Yankee rotation would look like without Lee. As things stand currently, that would mean Ivan Nova would be the Yankee #5 starter with CC, Burnett, Hughes and Pettitte filling out the starting five. The Yanks generally don’t like to enter a season barely having 5 starters, which is what this rotation would represent. The team would look better if they pick up a back of the rotation type on a 1 year deal, so if things go south they can always cut bait around mid-season. Looking at the list of available free agent starters they would be choosing from pitchers such as Bruce Chen, Jeff Francis, Dave Bush, Freddy Garcia, Brian Burres, Rodrigo Lopez, Jeff Suppan, or Kevin Millwood. Those are the healthy guys, for a more speculative bet on upside you have your choice of Erik Bedard, Brandon Webb, Brad Penny, Justin Duchscherer, Chien-Ming Wang, Chris Young, and Ben Sheets. We don’t even need to discuss Carl Pavano. I have trouble making a case for anything above a minor league invite or a low base incentive-laden deal for any pitcher on that list. Given the dearth of available starters and the sky-high prices free agents are going for this year, any of the guys with even a hint of ability on that list will command more than that.  

Further complicating matters is that, as we all know, Andy Pettitte is currently leaning towards retirement. We can all hope that if the Yankee situation is desperate enough, Andy will come in riding on a white horse and save the day. But we can’t count on that. Living with Ivan Nova as your #5 is one thing, but penciling him in as your #4 and filling in with someone from that above list or the next guy on the Yankee depth chart (David Phelps or Hector Noesi) is something they simply can’t live with. Not in the AL East, not with the Red Sox making the upgrades they already have this off season. If Andy retires, I have to think the Yanks would revisit Joba Chamberlain in the starting rotation. They may even let him and Nova battle things out in spring training if just the 5th spot is open. That’s what they did with him and Hughes this past spring, and Ivan Nova has never been viewed by prospect watchers as having the ability of Phil. Despite his sub-par 2010 campaign, Joba still has more upside as a starter than Nova, who lacks a true swing and miss pitch and relies mostly on his heavy, sinking fastball. We know it’s not their preference, but if Andy bows out and they come in second in the Cliff Lee sweepstakes, I think revisiting Joba the starter becomes unavoidable as things stand currently.

58 Responses to “Imagining the Yanks without Lee”

  1. If someone has a (realistic) trade target not named Zach Grienke, I’d love to hear it. Jonathan Sanchez? Best case scenario he’s a acceptable replacement for Pettitte, and to be honest I think his control issues will be exposed in the AL East. It’s also buying high, his previous 4 seasons and career low .262 BABIP last year (.301 career) suggest a lot of luck for him in 2010. You could argue he has steadily improved, but his profile gives me pause.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Jay CT Reply:

    What about Adam Wainwright? Go with me here for a minute. As Jayson Stark wrote:

    “They already figure to be on the hook for about $68.4 million, just for six players, in 2012, assuming they pick up options on the nearly equally indispensable Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright and Yadier Molina. Now if you add another $30 million for Pujols, they’d be closing in on $100 million for just 28 percent of their roster — this for a team that had a $113 million payroll last season.”

    Wainwright makes 6.5, 9 and then 12 million. If the Yankees dealt Montero, two of the killer B’s, and two of Laird, Nunez or Adams, the Cardinals could fill five positions with cost controlled kids and afford to keep Pujols. I know it’s probably not realistic, but it’s the best I can think of.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Craig Reply:

    I like Wainwright, but I don’t like him THAT much. Is that your package idea or Stark’s? If the Yankees were going to give up that much I want Justin Upton, Miguel Cabrera, Tulo or Hanley.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    You would want an outfielder like Hanley (yes he will be an outfielder soon) and Upton, a firstbaseman or a SS that isn’t going anywhere? I want a starter like JJ or Felix for a package like that.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Craig Reply:

    That’s more of a subjective comment. Those are my favorite players and the ones that the Yankees would have to trade Montero for without me getting pissed.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    That’s more of a subjective comment.Those are my favorite players and the ones that the Yankees would have to trade Montero for without me getting pissed.  

    No it isn’t, trading a possible all-star bat for another bat doesn’t get you anywhere and when you would have to package together pitching to do it you just lose, it’s not about “favorite players” it’s about helping the team win, Dontrelle Willis has always been one of my favorites but I don’t want him on my team.

    Starting pitching is our only weakness why trade for either an outfielder or firstbaseman when you already have those positions strongly filled? All your doing is replacing great with great and still having a hole in the rotation, the only way the Yankees should trade Montero is for a top flight starting pitcher.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Jay CT Reply:

    No the deal was all my idea. I never said it was good. I just was trying to find a younger pitcher that has a super high upside and a team with possibly a reason to trade.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    smurfy Reply:

    If Montero is your headline bait, your target (although Wainright is an admirable one) sb in the American League. Cardinals could reswap him, but there’s discount if they’re doing the work.

    I agree with Chris, above, that Felix is the better target, though Zdurensic (sic) already passed on Montero. Probably, with Boston newly loaded, I would be more tempted to start rebulding a younger staff with two or three strong prospect or rookie pitchers, maybe from Oakland or Kansas City, although I’m not well informed.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    I think this just further proves we need to hang on to all 3 B’s so at least one should make it to the majors and stick, we need to grow young pitching talent and we have it, I don’t understand why so many people are rushing to trade it.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Jay CT Reply:

    I would rather get Felix if possible, but I don’t see there being any reason why Seattle would trade. At least the Cardinals may have some sort of reason to trade a pitcher; Felix is all they have in Seattle.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

  2. The problem with relying on Nova, Joba, Noesi, etc. is they’d presumably all have innings limits. So, if you were depending on two of that ilk, you’d likely run into some trouble later in the season. Even if Andy comes back, he’ll be a good bet to miss 4-6 weeks, so again, the Yankees would be stretched thin. The Yankees could be ok without Lee if, and it’s a big if, AJ has a big season. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to bank on that happening.

    I’d still like the Yankees to look into dealing AJ for Zambrano. I was also thinking Matt Cain might be a target if SF wanted to add offense, but that doesn’t to be the case. Maybe the Dodgers could be coaxed into a Billingsley deal? Or, instead of getting Greinke, perhaps the Yankees could engage the Royals in a three-way deal that sends him to another teami n return for another starter (maybe Danks from the White Sox)? Regardless, if the Yankees miss out on Lee, Cashman is going to have to be very creative.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    DW Reply:

    If our new pitching coach gives the okay to big Z then the Cubs may just trade him as a salary dump. He only has 2 years left with an unlikely to be picked up option. Z could easily pitch as a solid number 2 if motivated.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Damian Reply:

    With injury problems on top of head problems, along with control problems and salary problems, which are accompanied by an age problem and an AL East problem, I think there are just too many problems with big Z.  (Quote)

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    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Yeah as erratic as Burnett is I think Zambrano has Javier written all over him… he has had a 4 year decrease in fastball velocity and he has only gotten worse it’s dropped, I would much rather stick with AJ’s bounce back at least he pitches in the East.  (Quote)

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    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    Z is poison..bad for clubhouse..  (Quote)

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    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Besides that he isn’t as good as Burnett is.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    DW Reply:

    He’s better…  (Quote)

    Craig Reply:

    Joba probably would not have much of an innings limit – if any at all. They would use his innings total from 2009.  (Quote)

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  3. grienke will be a melt down in NY.. no way gamble on that guy.. we need a proven #1 from the AL, i say we bypass lee, save all that cash for next year……overwhelm seattle and get hernandez.. i match felix with any one at any time..give him some runs and he may pitch better..if thats possible..he likes the big stage..as it stands now we have CC and hughes, if pettitte comes back ,he may break down, and is only a year plug in..the rest are #5 including AJ. felix on the yanks would help us in every way.. if lee goes down with a back issue , seven years is insane…no way..if lee wanted to come to the yanks he would have jumped as soon as they upped it to seven..let him go to texas and battle the heat..  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Craig Reply:

    No. I agree with Greinke to the degree that I just don’t want the Yankees to trade a bunch of top prospects for someone with his question marks. But an emphatic “no” on passing on Cliff Lee. The Felix stuff is too much speculation so I’m not going to get into that too much, but passing on Cliff Lee would get Cashman fired.  (Quote)

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  4. Go for the Big Duch/Ben Sheets poo-poo platter. Two high upside guys with health issues. Yeah if they both crap out the season’s over, but if even one hits you have another poss ace… and if both work out even bigger impact than Lee poss? Are both really free agents this year? I didn’t really read the article to closely  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    I have never heard anyone say Duscherer has “high upside” or that he could be a post season ace, the guy is a glorified Chad Gaudin (who’s ceiling is so low it might as well be an igloo), he is better off relieving and he also has anxiety issues like Greinke, I even heard he went on the DL for mudd butt because of it.

    Also Sheets had yet another tommy john surgery and is out th year, even if he hadn’t though he was throwing in the high 80s and low 90s last year and looked highly unimpressive  (Quote)

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  5. The only way I’d go for Greinke is if he comes in as the # 3 or 4 starter to reduce the pressure. The Royals are looking for up the middle help, which the Yankees can help with. My ideal is the bornwithpinstripes idea, to overwhelm Seattle for Hernandez. The biggest problem there is not who we give up, but dealing with their hideous GM.  (Quote)

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    Craig Reply:

    Prying away Felix Hernandez would be any fan’s dream. His idea is fine except for the “pass on Lee” part and the fact that the prying away of Felix would still need to happen. Signing Lee would actually make it more likely that the Yanks were able to send the M’s an offer that they couldn’t refuse.

    I can’t imagine what type of package it would take to put Felix in pinstripes, and I’m not even sure I want the Yankees to even venture down that road – with or without Lee.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Damian Reply:

    Felix should fetch: Robinson Cano, Brett Gardner, Jesus Montero, Banuelos, Adams, Nunez  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Let me show you how that conversation goes.

    Cashman: so who do you want for Felix?

    M’s GM: Can…

    Cashman: (phone falls on floor) HAHAHAHAHA

    M’s GM: Hello?

    Cashman: dial tone.

    Felix is the only player in baseball I would include Montero for but that said the M’s have no reason to trade him (he signed a 4 or 5 year deal) and if we call them after missing out on Lee they know they can ask for whatever they want.  (Quote)

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    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    you think we can even for the ken phelps trade..only other trade worse than that was fregosi for ryan  (Quote)

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    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    leave out cano ,lets make the deal  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    The M’s would then laugh at you.

    They already have a first baseman in Smoak and there is no one who believes Montero is a catcher longterm, maybe if you throw in Brackman and Betances and maybe a high upside guy like Heathcott they might listen MIGHT listen.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    i feel give up what ever talent we have to get a deal, without cano of coarse. skip lee, we may rue the day with him.we can use the money we save next year..  (Quote)

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    T.O. Chris Reply:

    That thinking just isn’t logical, Hernandez is just as likely to blow out an elbow or shoulder as anyone else is if we could get him id give up a lot but not the farm!

    The best offer id give the M’s is 1 “B”, Montero, Hughes and a Nova type and they wouldn’t do it and I wouldn’t get bent over a table just to panic because the Sox got better.

    Who exactly is the big free agent you want to spend this money on next year? Joses Reyes, Jose Bautista. and Jimmy Rollins will be the big name free agents and the only pitcher worth noting is Mark Buerhle at 33.  (Quote)

    smurfy Reply:

    Cano is the best player we got, but certainly the best trade bait therefore. I knew it had to come up, but I love watching him, and he may have a more complete season, without the dips, and be more attractive in future. The name of the Yankees’ game, though, is p-p-pitching, and if you just gotta have the best, immediately, you gotta give up the best.

    I’d keep Cano, forget Felix, except when dreaming, and focus on highly rated young pitchers with Montero, Laird, Nunez and Adams. Probably forget this year, too, but Cahill or some such young talent?

    Chris, p-p-please don’t trade Phil.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Cahill are you serious? You didn’t buy into the Cy Young hype surrounding him did you? At home he had a sub 3 ERA but on the road it was plus 4 and in the 2 games he faced the Yankees he lasted less than 5 in both games and gave up 6 or more in both.

    Cahill is at best a 4 or 5 for any team not named the A’s in the AL.  (Quote)

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    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    agree, he is a snake  (Quote)

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  6. He’s better…  

    No he’s not…

    Trying to judge AJ Burnett’s talent level on thos past year is ridiculous look at the two players career and then realize one has spent large amounts of his career in the AL East, Zambrano doesn’t have the blow away stuff Burnett does (currently averaging 90-91) and his mental and character makeup has always been a red flag.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

  7. AJ Burnett: Career WAR: 31.5
    1770 IP
    1618 Ks
    743 BBs
    ERA: 3.99
    FIP: 3.93
    xFIP: 3.80
    8.23 K/9
    3.78 BB/9

    Zambrano career: Career WAR: 30.6
    1681 IP
    1441 Ks
    767 BBs
    ERA: 3.50
    FIP: 3.93
    XFIP: 4.13
    7.72 K/9
    4.11 BB/9

    Burnett beats Z in almost every category and by stats alone is clearly a little better than Z but when you consider much of his career has been in the AL East it’s no contest AJ is better by a little bit.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    DW Reply:

    blah…  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Good reply it really shows you can show class when you are wrong on a subject.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    DW Reply:

    Dude you need too always be right! Zambrano is the better pitcher. I don’t give a damn about the stats you posted.

    Career quality starts % Burnett 59 %…Zambrano 62 %
    Team winning % in games started Burnett .505…Zambrano .578
    Team W/L record in games started Burnett 140-137 Zambrano 149-109

    I will take Zambrano….  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    So you don’t care about stats that actually deal with how good or bad someone is but instead would rather deal with stats that pertain to team wins? That just doesn’t make sense, of course Zambrano has been on a better team for his career because the Cubs were a playoff team the majority of those years and the Jays weren’t, they Had Doc Halladay and Burnett but the Jays sucked and couldn’t win games so their records suffered.

    You don’t seem to grasp that AJ has faced harder competition in much smaller parks for years and still comes away with the better numbers, you can be wrong about something (happens to me all the time) but you have to be able to admit it and move on instead of trying to act like stats such as quality starts, wins or win % means anything compared to FIP, xFIP, K/9, K/BB, etc… when we have come so far since those stats meant anything.

    Wins are completely overrated Chien Ming Wang won 19 games twice was he ever an ace? No he was just pitching well enough on a great offense.

    You do realize winning percentage and wins mean nothing right? It has nothing to do with how good a starter is and everything to do with how good the TEAM is, that’s Felix Hernandez wn the Cy Young this year with a .500 record.

    Quality start % is such a bad stat to go off of first of all they are pitching in two different leagues and instead of facing a pitcher every 9 spots Burnett was facing Ortiz, Matsui and so on in the DH hole, they really aren’t comparable and these stats are useless.

    You take the inferior NL starter with the better win % and ill take the clearly more talented AJ and I’ll be more than happy about it.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    DW Reply:

    Blah…Dude again I will take Zambrano and do not give a crap what you think! Of course only the stats that support your position are good. You are pathetic!  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Moshe Mandel Reply:

    The stats, overall, suggest that while they are close, Burnett has been better. Not sure why you are getting so riled up about that.  (Quote)

  8. No he’s not…Trying to judge AJ Burnett’s talent level on thos past year is ridiculous look at the two players career and then realize one has spent large amounts of his career in the AL East, Zambrano doesn’t have the blow away stuff Burnett does (currently averaging 90-91) and his mental and character makeup has always been a red flag.  

    I had a bunch of career stats that prove AJ is better such as FIP, xFIP, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, WAR and innings pitched but they won’t post for some reason but AJ is the better pitcher and all the numbers back it up.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    Moshe Mandel Reply:

    Sorry about that. It should be there now.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Cool thanks, I’m pretty sure it’s my phone I’ve never had it happen before but since I’ve been forced to use my phone (comp died new one on the way) it’s happened twice.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

  9. chris ,i did not look to see who is a FA next year,, but not throwing all that money at the same guy who may also blow his elbow out also.. felix is young and signed for a great contract. my point is ,if we are going to try and trade for a top flight pitcher it might as well be the best…doc,lee and others have been traded, yes contract years,for some..but all these names being floated , i would not trade any monteros for them..lee does not want to play for us, he has to think about 7 years.. he is doing a maddux, we seen this movie.. for my money he can now go to texas..felix is a dream catch, but no body on that team is untouchable.. if the gm their would laugh, he will be laughing again in last place with felix..look at their staff last year..looked great from the start..last..what good is it to have one superstar and finish last again..they need to get 4 top flight picks to compete in the future..which we have..get me one phone with this bum..  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    The difference is no one is coming to the park to see Jesus Montero or Justin Smoak but once every 5 days their attendance spikes because the Cy Young contender and next year the reigning Cy Young champ is pitching there is no way they will trade Felix when they don’t have to for 4 guys when they would still finish last bust just not make as much.

    Baseball is a buisness and people who own a buisness think about making people come to games and it’s going to be hard to get tickets sold if you trade Felix and admit you suck and are giving up when a year ago right or wrong they were picked by some (not me) to win that division.

    If you want to trade Hughes, Montero, 2 B’s, Nova and a Nunez they would probably do it or at least consider but why do that? Because Boston signed Crawford? That’s not how a buisness works.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    not because of crawford,,our problem was what we all seen last year and then in the playoffs,,chris that is a team that got rid of griffey, arod, johnson..tino et.al..same with the marlins, and other teams..expo’s..san diego just traded an allstar..for prospects..you never know until you try..but i agree it is a long shot..  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    T.O. Chris Reply:

    The Mariners have no one else to market unless they blow your system apart and tell their fans they raped you in the trade it’s not worth losing the ticket sales.

    I understand we need pitching but my point is just trading whoever for whomever would be a panic move because the Sox got better, the more strategic buisness decision would be to see what’s available (and since we would look desperate it would all be too high) and when nothing fits you go into the season with an injury prject like Webb and see what’s available for trade at the all star if nothing comes out of it stand strong, try and compete and make a trade in the offseason when teams may be more inclined to move Josh Johnson or someone like that, however if you bust your nut over just anyone now we can’t get someone else later.  (Quote)

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  10. As fans we have to be honest with ourselves and honestly outside of Lee and the non option of Greinke (as far as I’m concerned) there is nothing we could or should do as far as a trades goes and we may just have to live with a free agent with major question marks.

    To trade any of our big prospects for any starter that isn’t Josh Johnson, Felix Hernandez, Ubaldo Jimenez, Klayton Kershaw or Brett Anderson is a bad idea and none of those guys are available for trade until at least the all star break (which where we should look for a trade) but anything else is a waste of farm system pieces.

    The only starter outside of the group I named above I would try and trade for is Fausto Carmona just because he has a devestating sinker and he knows CC from the good times so maybe he could help him get back to the old ways but I wouldn’t trade Montero or Betances/Banuelos for him and they probably wouldn’t do a fair trade.  (Quote)

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    bornwithpinstripes Reply:

    hey what happen ,we agree chris  (Quote)

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    smurfy Reply:

    Yeah, Chris. Oooh, Brett Anderson. That’s Oakland, right? I have heard they have young pitching.  (Quote)

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    T.O. Chris Reply:

    Yeah Oakland has a lot of young talent but that park helps numbers it’s one of the biggest in the league and besides that it has foul territory in play for days so balls in the seat foul most places are outs.

    Brett is their ace he doesn’t blow people away sitting 90-92 but he has good control and works down in the zone very well but he is untouchable with the A’s right now and after thet missed on Iwakuma I doubt they will trade a starter.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

    smurfy Reply:

    In the case we don’t get Lee, Petitte retires, we could target young #4 types with our minor league fielder/hitters. 2011 would likely be forfeit, but among those acquitions (2?) and our prospect pitchers, we could use the bullpen and the #4 and 5 spots to look for the gem. No?  (Quote)

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    T.O. Chris Reply:

    No. Why would you trade prospects for number 4 starting pitching? We already have plenty of young arms in the system pegged to be potential 4′s and 5′s we’d have to trade to get those guys, Yankee fans need to stop thinking the solution to every problem is a trade.

    Besides our system isn’t strong in position players after catcher and pitcher it’s gets pretty thin and the next strongest spot would be decimated in trades without including our pitchers.  (Quote)

    [Reply To This Comment]

  11. The problem with relying on Nova, Joba, Noesi, etc. is they’d presumably all have innings limits. So, if you were depending on two of that ilk, you’d likely run into some trouble later in the season. Even if Andy comes back, he’ll be a good bet to miss 4-6 weeks, so again, the Yankees would be stretched thin. The Yankees could be ok without Lee if, and it’s a big if, AJ has a big season. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to bank on that happening.I’d still like the Yankees to look into dealing AJ for Zambrano. I was also thinking Matt Cain might be a target if SF wanted to add offense, but that doesn’t to be the case. Maybe the Dodgers could be coaxed into a Billingsley deal? Or, instead of getting Greinke, perhaps the Yankees could engage the Royals in a three-way deal that sends him to another teami n return for another starter (maybe Danks from the White Sox)? Regardless, if the Yankees miss out on Lee, Cashman is going to have to be very creative.  

    It would be a huge mistake to trade AJ for Carlos, Z has no sense of team and is one of the most selfish ball players I have ever seen, his fastball velocity has dropped 4 straight years (same as Javy before his disaster year) and if you look at all the numbers I laid out of both he walks more and strikesout less against inferior competition than AJ, Burnett is poised for a bounce back while Z in the east has disatser written all over him. I would much rather have a pie than a guy who will break bats and gatorade machines as soon as things are rough against Boston.

    No to Billingsleyhe has had troubles staying in the Dodgers rotation a year ago and has never really shown the flashes of dominance against the NL that is neccesary in the AL and especially the East.

    I like Danks and would love to trade for him but after the Swisher trade they won’t be looking to let us win again and I wouldn’t trade any of the Bs or Montero for him, not to mention the fact that they are trying to compete and losing Danks is a big blow to their staff.  (Quote)

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  12. joba for billingsly. 2 guys thats’ teams have messed them up lol maybe a change of scenery for BOTH would make this a fair deal (maybe throw in cervelli too)  (Quote)

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  13. Blah…Dude again I will take Zambrano and do not give a crap what you think!Of course only the stats that support your position are good.You are pathetic!  

    It’s just sabermetrics man don’t get mad at me they say what they say….

    Win percentage is a team stat because a pitcher can throw a shutout but if his team doesn’t score a run and it goes extra innings he gets a no decision but in another start you can give up 7 runs in 5 innings but if your team score 9 you get a win which start was better? Clearly the 9 IP no decision.

    I’m just using non biased stats and that’s all we have to go off when you look at all the numbers available not just a few but all the numbers that deal with the pitchers ability alone Burnett is better and when you consider the level of competition faced and how bad his teams have been it widens the margin by that much more.

    Neither one is a hall of famer but it’s clear Burnett has had the better career, Carlos is abetter hitter than Burnett but that’s about it.

    FIP stands for fielding independent pitching and it focuses on what a pitcher can control only they both have a 3.93 FIP which would mean they were close to equal after you look at the other stats even though Burnett Ks more and walks less but the fact that Burnett has pitched all these years in the AL East means that Burnett’s numbers hold more weight.

    Like I said I’m fine with taking Burnett but I just don’t see how I’m “only using numbers that back (me) up” when I used a multitude of stats and numbers and you are only using 3 very outdated stats, they aren’t outdated because I say so they just are outdated because the information we have and the things we know about the game are far better than they were when wins and losses were the be all end all.

    I forgive you for the name calling and have a wonderful day :)   (Quote)

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