Photo credit Antonelli/NY Daily News
The main storyline going into last night’s game being pushed by the MSM was the Burnett-Posada relationship and how it would affect the game. But with both starters exiting in a 4-4 tie by the 5th inning, last night’s game quickly became a battle of the bullpens. The Red Sox bullpen did their job, with the noticeable exception of Okijima, who has struggled against the Yanks in recent years. Aceves held the Sox off for 2 innings, but the 8th inning was where things really got interesting. With a 1 run lead, Girardi called on Dave Robertson to start the frame, who promptly gave up a single to Youkilis. Damaso Marte came in to get Ortiz, but allowed Youkilis to go to 2nd base on an errant throw to First base. Ortiz flied out to Center, and out of the dugout came the Yankee manager, calling on Joba Chamberlain to put out the fire with the game on the line.
One quick observation, Joba jiggled noticeably as he jogged out of the bullpen and onto the mound. He’s had weight issues in the past, and it’s something I’ve noticed since the middle of last year. I can’t help but wonder how much that played into the decision to send him to the set up role, that he’s simply not dedicated to conditioning himself enough that the Yanks fear he won’t hold up as a starter. Pitchers get hurt when they tire, and Joba’s physique resembles that of Bobby Jenks more than that of Roy Halladay, or even Phil Hughes for that matter.
Onto last night’s game. Joba was masterful, striking out Beltre and JD Drew with just 9 pitches. Working low in the zone with 94-97 MPH fastballs and then coming up with a high 80′s slider that the bottom dropped out of. He even finished off the night with one of his trademark fist pumps, as the picture above shows. That’s the pitcher we saw burst out of the minors late in the 07 season. Considering that it’s early April and he’s always been a slow starter, we can expect him to add a few ticks as the season progresses, and the long standing velocity questions can finally be put to rest.
On Joba’s part, he seems to be embracing the setup role without any hesitation or regret whatsoever. Check out these quotes from last night’s post game:
In any case, when asked about his show of emotion afterward, he shrugged and said, “That’s who I am.”
With those words, Chamberlain may have finally closed the door on two years of debate about whether he should be a starter or a reliever. Indeed, surely that debate is over now, for here he was again, cranking his fastball up to 97 mph on his strikeout of Beltre, and hitting 95 a couple of other times.
Whether it’s adrenaline or mind-set, it’s a blow-away velocity he just doesn’t reach as a starter. Chamberlain acknowledged as much last night.
“You can’t let it fly for five or six innings,” he said. “You can’t physically do it. This is a one-inning game.”
(snip)
So make no mistake: some of this is about keeping Chamberlain motivated, pushing him to embrace his return to the pen.
Don’t think Joba doesn’t know it either.
“Joe does a tremendous job of challenging people,” was the way he put it Tuesday night. “But of course I want that role. It’s something I take pride in.”
He doesn’t sound to me like someone who’s sulking over losing his gig as the #5 starter. He sounds to me like someone who loves this role. Brian Cashman may call him ‘a starter in the bullpen’, but I have trouble seeing this decision ever being reversed. There’s too much organizational momentum behind it, and Joba himself seems to embrace it.
Joba needs Scott Boras as his agent, his tune on the 8th inning role will change quickly. Steve H(Quote)
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I have noticed the weight in recent days, he has definitely gained some weight. I certainly noticed that same “jiggle” yesterday as he was coming out of the bullpen. On Sunday I caught myself calling Joba a “fatty” in my rant towards the TV when he gave up a run.
I did like what I saw last night though, I missed seeing that fist pump. Arno(Quote)
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“Working low in the zone with 94-97 MPH fastballs and then coming up with a high 80’s slider that the bottom dropped out of … That’s the pitcher we saw burst out of the minors late in the 07 season.”
He had four starts last season – 5/10 @BAL, 5/16 vs. MIN, 6/1 @ CLE and 7/10 @ANA – where his fastball velocity sat at 94 MPH and topped out at 97; last night, Chamberlain was 95-96 the entire outing. What we saw last night was nothing special – although not consistently, Chamberlain showed the velocity he had last night in multiple starts (when you consider the max velocity, maybe even more) across his 2009 campaign. Jamal G.(Quote)
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steve s Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 9:48 am
My comment was less about his velocity and more about how he was setting up hitters. Fastballs low in the zone, sliders up with big break. steve s(Quote)
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Yankee1010 Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Thank you. My sentiments exactly. People are acting like we haven’t seen this from him as a starter. People have it so much in their heads that he should be a reliever, that they’re ignoring the hard facts. Yankee1010(Quote)
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steve s Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Folks, there’s more to pitching than velocity, and you’re reading in things that aren’t there. Again, I was referring to how he was attacking the hitters. steve s(Quote)
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Church of the Perpetually Outraged Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:08 am
“Considering that it’s early April and he’s always been a slow starter, we can expect him to add a few ticks as the season progresses, and the long standing velocity questions can finally be put to rest.”
To be fair, that’s a direct quote so it’s easy to see why people think you were/are focusing on his velocity. Church of the Perpetually Outraged(Quote)
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Yankee1010 Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:18 am
Correct me if I’m wrong, but your post is pretty heavy on velocity analysis. Yankee1010(Quote)
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The Honorable Congressman Mondesi Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:10 am
I agree… But at the same time, seeing him as a reliever at what we consider to be a good starter’s velo (for him) isn’t necessarily the best argument for why he should be in the rotation. I actually want to see him bump it up a bit more. Seeing THIS velo from him, as a starter, doesn’t give me confidence he’d be sitting at this velo as a starter right now. The Honorable Congressman Mondesi(Quote)
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Yankee1010 Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:23 am
I know. I understand your point. However, it is also early in the year and he’ll likely add a few mph as he builds up his arm strength so it could be that this is where he would be as a starter.
My issue was with the popular notion that THIS is somehow a different Joba because he came out of the pen, when in fact, he’s done this as a starter. And we can “debate” it all we want, but starters are more valuable than relievers. And we all know that.
In any event, people get so caught up in velocity and expect guys to be sitting at 95 mph as a starter and Ubaldo was the only starter to average over 95 mph as a starter. Yankee1010(Quote)
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The Honorable Congressman Mondesi Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Oh totally… If/when he adds a couple ticks to his velo out of the bullpen, I’m with you. I’d just like to see it first, before I go dismissing his velo from last night as irrelevant. As of today, it’s relevant, since he would be sitting at a lower velo (low 90s) as a starter right now.
Right now… This is a different Joba coming out of the ‘pen. In a couple of months, that will in all likelihood change because his velo will jump a bit more and we’ll be able to say quite confidently that he’d be sitting mid-90s as a starter… But right now we can’t say that. I just want to see it, we haven’t seen it in a while. The Honorable Congressman Mondesi(Quote)
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Yankee1010 Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:31 am
And if he doesn’t pick up the extra mph during the season, he also will not be quite as effective as a reliever. So he will not be as valuable as a reliever as the B-Jobbers want him to be. Sure, velocity isn’t everything, but it sure does help mask mistakes. Yankee1010(Quote)
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Regarding Joba’s statements about not letting it fly as a starter, pacing himself, being tentative, all that… And about the opposite being true as a reliever… First of all, I want AJ Burnett kept far away from Joba’s ear. That aside… I can’t believe I’m saying this since I find the man so loathsome, but if/when they want to start talking with Joba about transitioning back to the rotation, they should get Clemens to work with him. Starters do need to be cognizant of pitch-counts and working efficiently, but this kid seems (SEEMS – obviously this is just an off-the-cuff opinion) to have it in his head that he has to be overly tentative as a starter, and that’s just not true in the way he seems to think it is. The Honorable Congressman Mondesi(Quote)
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Yankee1010 Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Agreed. He let if fly in 2008 and at times in 2009. He was on fire as a starter then. It was the same way in the minors where he was throwing darts in the late innings. If it is a change in mentality, they need to work on that, but that’s part of the learning process of being a starter in the AL East.
If it’s because of the rotator cuff tendinitis from 2008, well, that’s going to affect him no matter what his role is. Yankee1010(Quote)
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“He sounds to me like someone who loves this role. Brian Cashman may call him ‘a starter in the bullpen’, but I have trouble seeing this decision ever being reversed. There’s too much organizational momentum behind it, and Joba himself seems to embrace it.”
It being reversed depends on what happens with andy, javy, and hughes. Plus ppl are not focusing on the number of guys that have signed extensions in the past few months.
Joba has no choice but to accept it because he’s not going t xreate waves. He’s smarter than that The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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plus there were also 3 games after the break where his velocity was also up and a start in detroit where he started off 91-92 then eiland got in his face and he threw alot harder from that point on. I think thats one thing that bothers me about ppl who want him in the pen they fawn over 2007 even though that was done under the original joba rules yet turn around and completely ignore his 2008 starts as well as the good/great games he pitched last yr. Hell last night michael kay said joba topped out at about 96 thats harder than he threw all of last yr. ???????? Michael you do the games hell you did the game when he pitched against the tribe and he hit 97 or 98 in the 8th inning. The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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I would have loved roger to be around joba and teach him how to be an aggressive starter. The problem is there is so much heat on clemens right now doing that would be suicide. The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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The Honorable Congressman Mondesi Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Hey, just a heads-up… If you click the little “Reply To This Comment” link beneath each comment, you can reply directly to that comment and your reply will appear directly underneath that comment. The Honorable Congressman Mondesi(Quote)
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The Bif City of Dreams Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Yes I know about the reply to comment button. I’m so used to hitting the quote button on other boards it’s kinda of a habit. My bad The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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He’s growing boy, Steve. Don’t begrudge him his steak and potatoes. He’s gotta be he. smurfy(Quote)
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He really needs to talk to Boomer Wells about the effects of carrying 40 extra pounds around. the other Steve S.(Quote)
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Maybe so, mebbe so. Did you notice anything about CC? Little extra? smurfy(Quote)
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It’s almost as if those 12 starts in 2008 NEVER happened. Trevor(Quote)
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The Bif City of Dreams Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
in the world of many ppl those starts don’t exist because I guess it goes against their argument. How many times have you heard he never threw hard as a starter or he never pitched well as a starter. Lol so those 12 starts were what lucky. He threw hard and dominated but yet it doesn’t get brought up at all. The funny thing is when he was starting no one said a word but when he struggles starting they can’t wait to sound the alarm. The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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I find myself going back and forth here. Joba COULD be a great starter if he wanted to be but he had the entire offseason to get in shape and he didn’t. If he doesn’t want to work on his conditioning so he can “let it fly” for more than one inning at a time, then he made the decision for Joe. Any manager would have to pick quality innings over quantity. It’s the sad and lazy truth. Tabata Daycare(Quote)
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The question is…..will everybody who felt it was a no-brainer that Joba should start continue to talk about how the Yanks should trade Joba, so that he can be a starter for some other team, or will they come around and admit that he’s just better as a reliever and let him be the lock down 8th inning bridge to Mo that every fan knows he can be? Ron(Quote)
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I’m now a believer that his only hope is as a reliever. LeftyLarry(Quote)
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Brian Cashman may call him ‘a starter in the bullpen’, but I have trouble seeing this decision ever being reversed. There’s too much organizational momentum behind it, and Joba himself seems to embrace i
Two quick points:
1- This is a silly statement on its face. The roles within a pitching staff involve
dynamic, not static thinking and change on an ongoing basis depending on a number of factors, including among other things the composition of the rest of the staff.. The thinking about the best utilization of Joba has changed multiple times in the past three years and it is hard to believe that a final decision is near being reached, especially based on just 9 pitches during the second game of the season.
2- Having said that, it may in fact be that Joba’s best place is in the back of the bullpen, currently as the 8th inning man and ultimately as the closer, because of his lack of conditioning, a physical inability to maintain his stuff or other factors. In 1976 , the Chicago White Sox experimented with a 24 year old Goose Gossage as a starter after he dominated in the bullpen in 1975. Like Joba in 2009 , Gossage faded in the second half the season after a fast start and they traded him at the end of the year to the Pirates where he became an elite closer before the Yankees acquired him as a FA agent prior to the 1978 season. While WAR indicates that good starters are valued higher than even elite relievers, this analysis doesn’t apply to the Yankees.Good, middle of the rotation starters can be acquired fairly easily; elite closers are much more scarce but provide the difference in winning championships.. Anyone who doesn’t understand the difference that Mariano Rivera has provided for the past 13 years hasn’t been paying attention.If Joba is a lights out reliever but is projected as just a good starter then he belongs in the bullpen. classicsteve(Quote)
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The Bif City of Dreams Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Yea but the price for those good middle rotation starts may be higher than the yankees want to pay. This upcoming FA pitching was suppose to be the best in yrs but yet every few months a guy gets extended. If mo resigns for 1 yr and retires at the end of 2011 that is the same yr papelbon is a FA why can’t the yankees just sign him. The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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Tabata Daycare Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Papelbon? I never want to see anus face in pinstripes. Tabata Daycare(Quote)
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The Bif City of Dreams Reply:
April 7th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
why not papelbon is a top closer in the league you mean to tell me you wouldn’t take a top closer if the team needed one. We had guys like clemens and damon on the team. Hell there were fans that wanted manny to be here a few yrs ago. The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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Tabata Daycare Reply:
April 8th, 2010 at 8:28 am
Because he is an a-hole and thought he should close the all-star game in NYC instead of Mo. And he has taken the loss in 2 of his last 3 appearances. And Joba/Brackman/Burnett/ or any other hard thrower already on the Yanks could close games 2-3 years down the road. Tabata Daycare(Quote)
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The Bif City of Dreams Reply:
April 8th, 2010 at 9:06 am
true he is tough to take many times and it was crazy for him to want to close the all-star game in NYC. But there is no way anyone can deny how good he is. You mean to tell me if Mo retired at the end of the 2011 season and pap being a FA came to the yankees and said I want to be closing games in pinstrips what do you think the yankees would do? The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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Tabata Daycare Reply:
April 8th, 2010 at 10:44 am
I wouldn’t. He is going to want Mo $ and he isn’t as good as Mo. Mo is one of a kind. I’d rather the Yanks use the $10-$15mln a year to sign a starter and use Joba or Brackman as the closer. Also, I’m not sure when he is a free agent but I’d pick Joakim Soria over Papelbon when you consider the likely cost difference. Tabata Daycare(Quote)
I’d take soria too. He is a very good reliever and his stuff is so nasty. No Pap is not as good as Mo but neither is joba and we have to see if joba can actually close. Brackman is a candidate but he might be a few yrs away.
Pap is a FA an the end of 2011 season and there is a thought that the red sox will let bard close. The Bif City of Dreams(Quote)
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