Steve made an interestingly, nuanced argument yesterday that Jesus Montero ought be traded if it turns out he is unable to play catcher. With Mark Teixeira at first base, Alex Rodriguez at 3rd, and Jesus Montero unlikely to play a passable left field, designated hitter would be his long term destination on the Yankees. Steve’s argument is not that Montero would not be a capable DH, but that pushing him to DH out of positional scarcity gets less than optimal value out of Jesus. Essentially, he’d be worth 100 points to the Yankees, but 150 points to a team that needs a 1st baseman.
It is a really interesting argument, and I definitely understand where Steve is coming from. He isn’t actually arguing that we trade Jesus Montero for Roy Halladay or someone, but rather that we sell high on the young hitter, and get equal value back for him. The type of trade that I envision from his argument is the Delmon Young-Matt Garza trade between the Twins and the Rays, where teams exchanged young potential stars from positions of strength.
I’ll assume for the purposes of this argument that Montero will play neither left field nor catcher in the major leagues (even though that is to be seen), but could play an average 1st base.
1st base and designated hitter are not radically different positions, from a value perspective. Sure, the designated hitter gets to sit on the bench and relax for half the game, but that doesn’t take away a boatload of value. Truth is, there is a very large number of 1st basemen in the Major Leagues who can hit very well while still fielding their position. Almost to the point of non-scarcity. Case in point: Fangraphs list a -15.3 run positional adjust for Hideki Matsui, a DH, and -12.2 adjustment for Mark Teixeira, a first baseman. For comparison, Derek Jeter’s shortstop position earned himĀ a +6.3 positional adjustment. What does this mean? It means that Derek Jeter would have been roughly 2 wins more valuable than Hideki Matsui had they had the same offense.
So basically, the difference between 150 games of Jesus Montero at DH and 150 games of Jesus Montero at 1st is about half a win. And some studies in the past indicate that players hit better as DHs than while playing the field, so take that into account too. I don’t see how this is a big enough difference to make Montero significantly worth more to a team with a 1st base opening than to the Yankees. I’d have taken David Ortiz in his prime on my team any day, even if he doesn’t own a glove.
The second question that Steve implies I think is a little more debatable. Do the Yankees actually have an opening at the DH spot? Jorge Posada and Alex Rodriguez are aging, and likely going to need to spend some time at DH as their bodies begin to break down. I definitely think that there is a short-term point here: Jorge Posada’s days behind the plate are quickly coming to an end. He can still hit, but he’ll likely need some time as a designated hitter. Hopefully, Montero can split time at the two positions with him, but if he can’t, Posada will take Montero’s spot in the batting order.
Here is my response: if Montero is as advertised, Posada will have to move aside. While he’s been a fantastic hitter for the Yankees, an aging Jorge Posada will probably not hit as well as Jesus Montero has a very good chance of doing. The usual prospect caveats apply to Montero, but they apply to all prospects and should be weighed against Posada’s aging-player caveats. Posada may have to become a part time player in 2011 if he can’t hold down the position, but Montero hits. I’m fine with that – the Yankees shouldn’t make their Montero decision with only 2011 in mind.
Alex Rodriguez is a longer-term situation. If for some reason Arod can’t play 3rd base, then he’ll have to DH, which will take Montero’s spot. I have two quick thoughts: that’s a long way away, and Jesus Montero may be able to play 3rd base passably well.
The Yankees have gotten by fine for awhile without using the DH spot to rotate in older players. They’ll be fine in the future.
I agree with the central logic of Steve’s argument: the Yankees would be better off with a comparable player to Montero who happened to fit their position needs. Yes, I’d trade Jesus for Jason Heyward or Mike Stanton in a second, even though I consider them all comparable prospects. Steve suggests using the Hamilton for Vazquez trade as a model. But the real question is: is there a match for Montero? Is anyone willing to give us a top-10 prospect from a position of Yankee need who happens to need a 1st basemen? I’m not trading Montero just to get my hands on Kyle Drybak or someone. The list is pretty short to me: Desmond Jennings, Jason Heyward, Mike Stanton, Buster Posey (who would make a lot of sense really), or Neftali Perez among prospects.
Furthermore, trading for someone like Josh Johnson, or (even worse) Roy Halladay would be a mistake. Jesus Montero carries another trait that makes him more valuable to the Yankees right now than guys like Johnson or Halladay: long term cost containment. As I argue here, 6 years of Jesus Montero at a cheap price allows the Yankees to go out and sign big free agents. Without players like Montero (and Hughes, Chamberlain, Robertson, etc) who come to the Yankees in the beginning of the year, the Yankees can’t build their own personal all-star team. They can only afford so many big contracts. The alternative to cheap, effective young players are cheap, ineffective players. You replace Montero with Enrique Wilson or Tino Martinez or Francisco Cervelli. I made this argument in a post a few months ago.
For now, the Jesus Montero fits the Yankees needs. Absent a youth-for-youth trade, the Yankees should wait and see what their star prospect can do in the majors.
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I agree with everything said, and it’s kind of what I said earlier today in Steve’s post. I would add that dealing for young pitching is very difficult in that they are much harder to predict. The Nationals aren’t dealing Strausberg. I would deal for Desmond Jennings, Heyward or Stanton ASAP, but even Feliz has question marks as to if he can stick as a starter or may need to become a closer. I believe one of the B.A. guys said “Prospects are like children. You always think yours are better then they are, and better then the other teams.” If you deal Montero, you better be damn sure what you are getting back is equal or greater then what Montero becomes. If Jesus hits like Cabrera from day 1, and you deal for a Homer Bailey (a top notch, can’t miss pitching prospect that still has yet to realize his potential), it could be the type of deal that haunts your career.
Considering what the Yankees have gotten defensively from Posada (it’s only fair to say that I have never like him, and often times despise the man), they should be able to tolerate Montero behind the plate. It’s not like Posada is a 70 on the defensive grade. And like EJ said, the Yankees have never tried him at 3B, LF, RF, or 1B (besides the occasional ground ball in practice). Who knows what he may be capable of. Odds are, he may be stuck at 1B. That said, and it’s been said yesterday and today all over the posts, when Tex is done, Jesus will be 27. That is still plenty of time for him to have 1B all locked up.
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I agree totally. Which young, cost controlled pitcher could you swap him for and not only get equal value, but also get a sure thing? I don’t think there is one out there. This close to the majors, the bat is always more of a sure thing than the pitcher due to injury. Hell, look at Volquez who just missed most of the year with TJS. You find a way to get Montero ab’s, and then at 27 he can take over at 1B. Edgar Martinez didn’t get regular AB’s until he was 27, and is a borderline HOF.
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I still believe that Montero will learn the catchers position well enough to start for the Yankees and be a middle of the order hitter. Not bad. If he learns to play a little 3rd base, he can occasionally give A-Rod a rest and also gets some at bats as a dh .If he’s as good of a hitter as advertised the Yankees will work it out. Do Not Trade this prospect for anyone, until he proves he can’t succeed on the Major league level with the Yanks. .
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Jay Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
A guy who can play catcher full time, play a little 3B, AND hit for power? So… he is the Russell Martin of defense and the Mike Piazza of offense?
And if he proves he can’t succeed on the ML level with the Yankees, who the heck will want to trade for him out of curiosity? Drayton Moore will be fired before then, lol…
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JMK aka The Overshare Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Screw it, let’s try him out at SS while we’re at it!
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Steve H Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
If you move him to SS, who’s going to pitch teh 8th!!11!!?
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The guy might have a Hall of Fame bat, is still in the minors, and already people want to trade him? We get more value by giving him every opportunity to learn the catcher position, and if necessary explore other positions that he can field. The team needs young cost contained players to balance the big contracts.
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For my money he don’t need a glove
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Why don’t the Yankees follow the path of the Boston Red Sox…. having a full time DH. The Red Sox benefited from David Ortiz during his prime. I don’t see why the Yankees can’t do it with Jesus Montero who is still 20 years old.
The Yankees should maximize Posada’s contract by using him mainly as a full time catcher in 2010. In 2011, Posada can be a part time catcher, 1st base, and DH.
Why trade Montero when the Yankees can fully maximize his talent?
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Focusing on a “prospect-for-prospect” swap possibility is fun and maddening. I can’t imagine Cash would trade Montero to another AL East team so that erases alot of possibility. Maayyybeee Cash would work with the Orioles ( the weakest team in the division with great minor leaguers), and perhaps Montero could get back a Brian Matusz (we’re gonna need LHP when Pettitte retires).
In fact, let me say for the record , i’d really like that trade. Orioles might not though.
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