Really, I love Jamie Hoffman. As a lifelong fan of the minor league baseball, I was pretty excited to see the Yankees get a relatively unimportant 1st overall Rule V pick following the Brian Bruney trade. The Yankees have had only one Rule V pick that I can think of make their roster, and that was Josh Phelps. Hoffman has some talents – a decent Triple-A batting history and strong defensive play. That said, Marcus Thames is far and away the better player, and barring a massive Thames setback in spring training, should make the roster over Jamie Hoffman.
Matt has already taken a look at what Thames could potentially produce. I won’t rehash that here. I think the following qualitative statements are clear: Marcus Thames is a significantly worse defensive player while being a significantly better hitter against left-handed pitching, while fairing poorly against right-handed pitching. Given the current makeup of the Yankee bench / left field situation, I think that is enough to no-doubt place Thames over Hoffman.
Brett Gardner is the incumbent starting left fielder (or center fielder). He is a very strong fielder and fairly light hitter. Randy Winn is also guaranteed a bench spot, with the other non-catcher bench slot going to a light-hitting utility man like Ramiro Pena. Winn struggled against left-handed pitching last season while playing characteristically strong defense. The current makeup calls for a right-handed hitter who can play outfield to fill in the space between Winn and Gardner.
Jamie Hoffman has good career numbers against lefties in the minor. They aren’t Thames-like, but they are pretty good. He also plays defense pretty well. However, Randy Winn plays defense just as well, and hits better. Marcus Thames hits lefties better. Randy Winn fulfills the defensive / right-handed pitching niche, so any defensive ability that Hoffman has is less important. Therefore, the best left-handed batter for the most part should be given the spot, which is Marcus Thames.
Having a strong batter-LOOGY who can play the corners and 1b gives the Yankees a lot of options:
- Pinch hit for Curtis Granderson, Robinson Cano, Francisco Cervelli, Ramiro Pena, Brett Gardner, Randy Winn
- Start for Brett Gardner vs. LHP
- Start for Nick Swisher (injury/rest)
- Start for Mark Teixeira (injury/rest)
Jamie Hoffman, with Winn on the roster, gives them the following options:
- Pinch hit for Francisco Cervelli, Ramiro Pena, and Brett Gardner, and maybe Randy Winn
- Start for Brett Gardner vs. LHP
- Start for Curtis Granderson vs. LHP
- Second-tier starting if Randy Winn starts for someone, or is injured
Those are a lot fewer options. Basically, he’s not good enough to take the spotlight away from Cano or Granderson. And Winn is a better option to start for Swisher or Granderson. And to top it off, Thames can play 1st base, where only Nick Swisher serves as a backup.
Unless Thames shows up to camp fat, Jamie Hoffman should find himself an apartment back in Las Vegas.
I think this depends completely on how the Yankees view Hoffmann’s potential. If they see the potential for him to develop a little bit more power then I think you keep him over Marcus Thames. When you think of Jamie Hoffmann as a prospect, then you stop thinking about who contributes more between the two and instead think, is the difference between the two large enough to give away a shot at potentially having a cost-controlled well-rounded league-average corner outfielder for the next few years?
Think about this, if Hoffmann can hang on for the rest of the season then the Yankees can option him down next year if need be. Say in 2011 or 2012 Hoffmann plays full time in left field at the age of 27 and puts up a .280/.360/.450 line. Do the Yankees think that’s possible? Do they think he could develop even more power and maybe push the slugging up towards .480-.490 and still play above average defense? Are the chances of that happening enough to live with him riding the bench this year?
These are all questions only the guys on the inside of the organization can answer. It will be very interesting to see how they handle this situation. Chip(Quote)
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bornwithpinstripes Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Hi Chip, next year crawford is a FA , do the yanks go after him, I thought they were by just the fill in guys this year, all of these people become expendable.. i don’t think hoffman is a long term plan guy, he must be kept all year on the 25 man or lose him, thats why i don;t understand all the moves, eat up too many spots, for Lf. how productive can guys be rotating, you can get into a groove.. can hoffman play RF, maybe next year swish is gone.. who knows..me i’m confused.. bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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Chip Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
There’s a good chance we go after him but the more I think about it the more I don’t think we will. Crawford is going to be one of the top guys on the list and his skill-set just isn’t the type that ages well as a corner outfielder. He’s got a high BABIP, doesn’t hit a ton of homers and strikes out twice as much as he walks. If he ages like Ichiro, he’ll be more than worth it but does anybody really think he’s not going to lose a step or ten in 5 years? Cashman seems to be stocking up on impact players up the middle so I wouldn’t put it past him but Crawford’s outstanding defense might be a huge part in it.
The problem is, you never know what Crawford is going to do. He might get traded to the Angels at the trade deadline and sign an extention so you can never assume that he’ll be available. Also, somebody might offer him a stupid big contract (see Mets and Bay, Jason) that would be stupid to match.
I think it would therefore be wise of Cashman to have a guy like Hoffmann who might be below average at the plate but runs the bases well, plays good defense and is only making the league minimum. When the upper level outfield talent is as barren as it is with the Yankees you want to create depth wherever you can get it.
Who knows, maybe the Yankees end up making a big trade like the Granderson one or sign somebody like Werth or maybe even stick with the Gardner, Granderson, Swisher lineup if it works. The 25th spot on the roster really isn’t important for a team like the Yankees. What else are they going to use it for? It’s not like Granderson or Gardner are going to be coming up in a huge spot ever week against a tough left-hander late in the game. It might happen once a month. If it’s somebody like Cervelli, Pena or Winn then you probably have Swisher, Granderson or Posada sitting on the bench waiting to pinch hit anyways. Chip(Quote)
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bornwithpinstripes Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
I would have given gardy and hoffman the job in left tried russo up here for a month or so..or bring him up if the platoon did not work..as a bat off the bench ,miranda to me would be the guy..either give these guys a shot or trade them..to look else where and bring winn thames, now just don’t figure to me.it is not just the 25th spot, 23 24 25 , if every one is happy with thames, trade winn..or we just loss hoffman.. what do you think Chip? bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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Chip Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Well since Thames is on a minor league contract I think that he just goes down to AAA at least to start the season if the Yankees decide to keep Hoffmann. The Yankees are going to run into a problem next year with Miranda though as I believe he’ll be out of options. Problem is for Miranda that the Yankees have three guys in Swisher, Johnson and Tex who can play first better than him and are also better hitters than him.
I think getting rid of Winn isn’t happening until July if it happens at all. I think their only decision is going to be between having Thames off the bench or having Hoffmann on the bench and Thames in the minors until June or so as I assume his contract has an opt-out if he doesn’t make the majors by a certain day.
The bench is almost already set with Winn, Cervelli, Hoffmann/Thames and Pena/Russo/Nunez/Corona. If I were running the team I’d strongly consider having a five man bench seeing how they might have Gaudin, Hughes, Aceves and Mitre all in the bullpen looking for as many innings as possible but the extra bench spot wouldn’t really help them all that much outside of a better shot of keeping Hoffmann Chip(Quote)
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bornwithpinstripes Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
makes more sense if thames starts out in AAA, as for NJ is he a 1 year guy or part of the roster going forward? swish gives you duel coverage. i would have liked to give him a shot off the bench.[miranda].. Cashman has a plan for next year,big last year, small moves this year, big moves next year.. we can’t continue to function by committee season after season.. unless NJ has a big year i feel he is gone next year, also everyone in left and swisher also.. the Dh spot has to be posadas next year..i know we will see a disaster from him this year.. his days behind the plate are just that..behind him.. we have the montero situation , for my money after next year full time DH and back up catcher..if all goes well for him.so we have a lot to guess about for next year, which is what we are dealing with next year ,and that not looking into the pitching..another topic.. thanks Chip bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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A couple of comments about your post:
1. Nick Johnson can play first base also.
2. Thames is really bad in the outfield and mostly DH’d or played first last year.
So as your post suggests the bench should be, one good defensive outfielder and one outfielder that can hit lefties but cant play the field. The logic of the post is flawed. It presumes that both players will hit and play well defensively. If Thames and Winn are indeed the 2 backup outfielders you have a defensive specialist (Winn) and a pinch hitting specialist (Thames).
The 2 together seem to be an odd pair. I personally would have like to seen Gomes, a hitter comparable to Thames and better defensively or Baldelli (as the 4th) who can provide some offense and defense. I would have been OK with Winn/Gomes and Gomes/Hoffman but not Thames and Winn. Don(Quote)
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Gomes is pretty bad in the outfield as well, about as bad as Thames. I think Thames and Winn are actually a good pair, as they do not replicate each other’s skills. Moshe Mandel(Quote)
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bornwithpinstripes Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Can we get rid of all of them and start fresh???/ maybe one guy with one player who can catch throw and hit lefties about 280 290?/ bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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Thames and Gomes are very similar offensively and defensively – Marcus may have a bit of a personality edge over Johhny but I’m not sure how much this factors into things.
If the Yankees are not going to keep Hoffman on the 25 man roster (for the year) – what are the chances of dealing with the Dodgers (probably for a mid-level prospect pitcher) in order to keep Hoffman in the organization and then be able to option him to the minors? Jaybird(Quote)
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bornwithpinstripes Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Jaybird , that would mean we gave up bruney plus another player, for hoffman i guy they won’t keep on the roster? no way… if thats the case just make your first loss your best loss. bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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Chip Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
The Dodgers front office also was quoted as saying they really want to get Hoffmann back because they think he can be an everyday player in the future so it’d take more than junk to keep him. Chip(Quote)
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E.J., do you think the Yankees could work a trade to retain Hoffmann’s rights? It’d be worth a shot, no? Matt Imbrogno(Quote)
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I think Thames is exactly what the roster needed. Somebody to mash RHs was the only remaining need, and he fills that spot pretty well. He’s this generation’s Bob Cerv.
Speaking of Cerv, he was used in LF in Yankee stadium (along with a lot of guys like Norm Siebern, an aging Yogi Berra, Johnny Blanchard, etc.) before they shrank it in the early 70s. Those teams won a lot of rings, and did so with only 3 HOF players. I think we tend to overrate LF/RF defense nowadays-that’s where they used to put guys who could hit out there before they did good defenders/below average hitters. When a LHer with a decent or better platoon split pitches, you sometimes start Thames and replace him with Winn or Gardner when either the Yanks get a lead or a righty comes into the game for the other team. oldpep(Quote)
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