Brett Gardner doing what he does best
Chad Jennings of LoHud poses an interesting question in his latest post, one that I think strikes at the heart of why Brett Gardner has as many detractors as he does fans among the Yankee faithful. Referring to Gardner and Granderson and their defensive positions in the outfield, he wrote this:
My question is: If those roles were switched, would that change the way you feel about the current Yankees roster?
This isn’t to debate the defensive merits of the two outfielders. I’m just wondering if the speed were coming from a typically speed-based position and the power were coming from a typically power-based position, would the lineup seem better? It seems there is some debate about whether Gardner provides enough power to be a left fielder, but I don’t see that it matters. If he were to open as the Yankees left fielder, he would be batting in the same spot in the lineup as on opening day 2009. The fact he would be playing left instead of center only means the Yankees defense would have improved.
For me, this really sheds light on why some fans are so dead set against him. Critics look only at his bat in his position and find it to be inadequate. He’s simply not a prototypical Yankee Left Fielder. Yankee fans have come to enjoy slugging Left Fielders in Hideki Matsui and Johnny Damon in recent years. The competition has often had a big bat in Left as well. The Red Sox had Manny for years, and more recently the dangerous Jason Bay. The Phillies have Raul Ibanez, the Tampa Rays have the dangerous Carl Crawford.
But this wasn’t always the case for the Yankees. The 1996 team had the light hitting Gerald Williams in Left, the 1998 team had Chad Curtis, 1999 and 2000 featured Ricky Ledee there and the 2001 team had a washed up Chuck Knoblauch manning the corner position. If you want to go back even further, the 1976-77 teams had Roy White out there. So if anyone wants to argue that ‘we can’t win’ with Brett out there, it just doesn’t wash. As of today, the Red Sox are looking at playing the speedy, light hitting Jacoby Ellsbury in Left field, which makes even less sense for them since the Green Monster negates much of the value of his speed. For this reason, I suspect he’ll flip positions with JD Drew by Opening Day assuming no further roster moves.
Those of us who support Brett view him primarily as CF, a premium defensive position where teams will often carry a light bat. We also view him as our #9 hitter and as such aren’t overly concerned with his bat. The value he adds is not so much in slugging the ball but rather in turning batted balls into outs. Making catches like this. His glove is so outstanding that in 09 he was a +2.1 WAR player as a part time player, his net value based almost entirely on his fielding abilities. As David Pinto famously noted, there are only three dimensions of offense. Anyone who can do two of them effectively can start for most MLB teams. We know Brett can run the bases, and he showed the ability to get on base at a .345 clip last year. That’s more than enough to make him a starter, though he may very well require a caddy on days when you face a tough Lefty. I will acknowledge that between Gardner and Granderson, the Yanks will likely be a bit more susceptible to tough Lefthanders than the 2009 edition was. But not enough to worry too much about with Jeter, Alex and three switch hitters (Tex/Posada/Swisher) in the lineup. Robbie Cano has always handled Lefties as well, and Nick Johnson has actually fared better facing Lefties over the course of his career.
To me, it comes down to this. If both Granderson and Gardner are going to play in the outfield somewhere, does this really matter? For lineup purposes, not one bit. But if were committed to playing both of them (which as of right now we are) then you might as well take advantage of Brett’s superior defensive abilities in CF. It makes no sense to put the lesser defensive player in CF when you’re playing both guys anyway, which is why EJ was right when he penned this controversial piece.
(photo courtesy of the NY Daily News)
The caption of your article is incorrect. Everyone knows what Gardner’s best at is popping up. Rich(Quote)
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Steve S. Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 10:50 am
Oh come on. He’s great at dribbling the ball to the Third Baseman as well. And he’s so damn fast he still beats a few of them out or forces an error here and there.
BTW-When he forces those errors, he gets no credit for either a hit or getting on base, yet his speed was the overriding factor in the play. Just something to remember when looking at his stats, he’s one of those players that most stats miss. Steve S.(Quote)
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I totally agree with you STEVE. It’s hard to improve on a ws winning team. As most fans have a hard time letting go of the players that won it. Alot of things went right last year and you can’t assume it will happen again this year without improving…. and Cashman has.
1. they got younger and cheaper
2. improved starting rotation
3. granderson gardy swisher best outfield d in AL
4. offense still looks to the league Ballpark(Quote)
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Steve S. Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 10:45 am
“As most fans have a hard time letting go of the players that won it”
Bingo. While they raise some valid points I think it really comes down to that. Both Matsui and Damon are good players, they’re old and breaking down. This team will be different, but should still be among the league leaders in Runs Scored. Steve S.(Quote)
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This is my one gripe with the stat guys. Defense is absolutely the only thing that matters in where a player plays the field. To say his offense is inadequate for the position is silly. All those things measure is the quality of potential replacements, internal or external. The only exception is catcher, where playing the position may have detrimental effects on a player’s offense through fatigue, wear and tear on knees, and the necessity of regular rest. Swapping Granderson and Gardner positionally might bring their offensive stats in line with expectations for their respective positions, but the lineup itself has not improved one iota. Defensively I think it’s anything but obvious, as Gardner has a small sample size at the position and Granderson does not. But at the end of the day, the various measures of a player’s offensive worth at a given position appraise one thing and one thing only, how well he stacks up relative to internal and external alternatives. YankeeGrunt(Quote)
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Steve S. Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 10:49 am
Yeah, I agree. Again, if you’re going to play both of them anyway then its silly not to put them where they are at their best defensively. With Curtis just coming here recently, maybe they just didn’t want to open up that topic. But by the time ST rolls around, if Gardner is an everyday player it should be in CF. Anything else is irrational. Steve S.(Quote)
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EJ Fagan Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 12:02 pm
I don’t think that the argument was ever made that Brett in CF and Curtis in LF = better offense. Chad Jennings’ argument was just that it seems better. That’s a pretty big distinction. EJ Fagan(Quote)
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YankeeGrunt Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Sure, but the reason it would “seem” better to anyone is because of expectations over which positions should produce what. YankeeGrunt(Quote)
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EJ Fagan Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 1:21 pm
I don’t see how you can have a problem with valuing defense offense based upon the position of the player who produces it. Teams need to field 9 hitters, but they also need to play defense at 8 positions.
Who has been a more valuable player over the course of their careers, Carlos Delgado or Derek Jeter? The outcomes without looking at defense say that Carlos Delgado is a much, much more valuable hitter. He hit .280/.383/.546 – basically with twice the power of Derek Jeter. But Jeter is a better offensive player because he plays a premium position.
Its really basic logic that goes right along with intuition. Center fielders don’t need to hit as well as left fielders. Now, how to use your current roster is a completely different question. It doesn’t matter to the Yankees whether or not Gardner or Granderson plays Center Field. But it does matter when looking at how valuable the players are overall. EJ Fagan(Quote)
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YankeeGrunt Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Absolutely, not disagreeing with you about any of that. Posada’s numbers in a corner OF slot are almost pedestrian, at catcher they’re almost historic. I’m just referring to the evaluation of a team’s own roster. If hypothetical player A took over shortstop and they decided to send Jeter to left for hypothetical player B because the defensive improvement at short was bigger than the projected defensive drop in LF, the only important statistical comparison for the purpose of internal evaluation would be A to B, not whether Jeter’s numbers offer a positional premium. That has a different value for external analysis, weighing free agent or trade targets as potential improvements over players not performing relative to their peers. But once the roster has been set the positional premium means virtually nothing. YankeeGrunt(Quote)
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To me, this is why I firmly believe that the Yankees will bring in another left fielder. The reluctance to move Granderson shows that they need him in CF because LF will be played by someone who cannot switch with him. The other thought is that left field may be just as tough, if not tougher, to play in Yankee Stadium then center field.
I get that the fans need something to complain about. I just think that it’s unfair because 98% of all other teams would love to have this problem; an All Star in every position except for left, and a rotation that has three pitchers that could be a teams “ace,” two young budding top of the rotation players, and a veteran lefty pitcher capable of pitching 200 innings of above average ball.
Have faith in Cashman. He knows what he’s doing. Jay(Quote)
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Steve S. Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 10:56 am
Damn, you really nailed it on all counts. I’ve suspected the exact same thing about LF, but I just can’t prove it. It could be a Xavier Nady-type on an incentive-laden deal, but he may not be ready to open the season. Steve S.(Quote)
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I think the guy that was traded for bruney will be our LFer, why else would cashman trade bruney? hoffman is now cashmans project..he will get a long look come spring..hope he has an above avg. arm ,i look for a who’s hot and match ups out in LF this year. i rather have this than cranky damon.. and goof ball melky. this past year he had some big hits, but over all, his approach was just swing , maybe for him off the big stage and now knowing BB is a business he can focus more on his abilities. i think with melky and abreu gone cano will even be better. i felt that last year after abreu who was a drag on both those kids. don’t sweat the outfield yet, our defense and pitchers carry us..we need swisher to play a little deeper, he is better coming in than going out like we have seen. anyone have cashmans #?? maybe we can trade joba , miranda, swisher, and some of those kids in the AAA bullpen for markakis.. ahh just dreamin bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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Ken a.k.a. Old Ranger Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Although I would love to have Markakis playing for us, there is no way I would trade a starting pitcher for him. Miranda and a few others but, not a starting pitcher, they are too hard to come by.
I realize some are thinking Joba is only good for the BP or AAA, I am not of that opinion. He has the talent to become a #1/2 rotation guy but, he needs to work for it much harder then he did last year. There is no excuse for a pro player coming to ST out of shape and not work hard to get in shape. His work ethic sucks he better wake up or he will join many others on the garbage heap. Ken a.k.a. Old Ranger(Quote)
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Us ‘stat guys’ are capable of factoring in defense. It’s not even all that difficult.
I think there’s a strong possibility Gardner can become a Pettis/Butler type OF with the OBA + SB (& otherwise running the bases very well) combination making their SLG less important. I’m not a big fan of the running game at the top of the order on a team with Tex & Arod, but running in front of a singles and doubles guy like DJ is a very good idea. Add in Derek’s propensity for GIDPs, and it may actually save outs. oldpep(Quote)
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Ken a.k.a. Old Ranger Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 8:03 pm
That summation I like! Ken a.k.a. Old Ranger(Quote)
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Ken i feel the same way about joba, he has issues ,drinking ,lazy, but to not be in great shape coming into last year was wrong..i felt the same way about wang..out of BB shape..Joba to me is always going to have issues,i know what your saying about starting pitchers and he does have the talent..but he might get the trade done..you put markakis behind arod..whew..a paul oniel canon of an arm, he plays RF yankee stadium excellent. we have some great arms in the minors still..i would make joba the bait, remember big bait catches big fish. Cashmans # anyone?? I feel we have the team to repeat this year now, damon and matsui were DLs in waiting.. great for us at one time..time has pasted..smart moves by Cash bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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Ken a.k.a. Old Ranger Reply:
January 3rd, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Trying not to be prejudice, I must say you are more right then I am. Damn, I hate that!
It is very hard to get past the starting pitcher angle, I always believe starting pitching is worth more then a position player. I guess it comes down to who the player is, and the value put on the pitcher, I guess only time will tell if Joba can do what it takes to be an Ace. Ken a.k.a. Old Ranger(Quote)
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“Deconstructing the Trouble with Brett”
Combinig Alfred Hitchcock with Woody Allen ??…..WEAK !!! Steve B.(Quote)
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When the kid is on base he is a game changer, hard nose kid, never dogs it..great range in the outfield..i know with a full season 50 steals are in the bag.. i love his grit.. if the yanks plan on him for the future not just a platoon or expendable after this year, he needs to be taught to pull the ball more, he does not wrist the pitches enough. more like a chop swing he is a lefty that don’t have a true LHed swing. i would invest the extra time to make sure this kid can hit ,he takes a lot of pitches trying to get on base, hence now he is challenged time and again.. maybe go after fast balls early in the count until pitchers catch up. at worst for the yanks and brett, defense help late, and a force in a pinch run situation.. at least for this year.. next year we will have 1 maybe 2 new outfielders. come on brett shows a great year kid bornwithpinstripes(Quote)
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