From Mark Feinsand (Daily News):
Halladay wants out of Toronto, but it’s unlikely that he would waive his no-trade clause to be dealt to a team unless he was able to sign a long-term extension – something only a select few teams have the resources to do, most notably the Yankees and Red Sox.
It would likely take a bigger package for one of the division rivals to land Halladay, but if they have the opportunity to do so, the belief inside the Yankees organization is that it would be well worth it to pair the righthander with CC Sabathia atop a rotation that would then feature A.J. Burnett – who considers Halladay to be a mentor – as its No. 3 starter.
A source with knowledge of the Yankees’ thinking said the Bombers already have their sights set on signing either Halladay or Cliff Lee if both become free agents after next season. Yankees executives, however, fear that Lee might sign a long-term deal with the Phillies before becoming a free agent, leaving Halladay as the lone target for teams looking for an ace.
Brian Cashman has been hesitant to deal his top-notch prospects in recent years, but after seeing the difference a dominant starting pitcher such as Sabathia can make, ownership may force Cashman’s hand, sending away blue-chippers such as Jesus Montero and Austin Jackson in a package with either Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain.
This sounds awfully similar to the Santana sweepstakes in 2007.
I think we’ll have a similar result, too, with Halladay being traded to another team, not named the Yankees. When compared to the way in which the Yankees handled the Santana situation, I see no reason for the organization to operate any differently with Halladay. Halladay is currently a better pitcher, that much is true, but he’s also older and will cost more than what the Mets offered the Twins for Johan Santana. Perhaps it really is best to let Halladay go this winter while keeping one’s fingers crossed that he’ll be a free agent after the season is over.
Plus, I wouldn’t fret over the Red Sox acquiring him just yet (offensive upgrades are their main priority).
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I wouldn’t sign him once he becomes a FA, he will be what 33 at that point? wanting at least 4 years and probably 5-6 from what you hear that’s fine for now but what about when he’s 38 and not an ace anymore and you have an older Halladay and older Burnett and an aging Jeter and Arod couple that with not knowing what Mo will do and you have a team of old guys you can’t move… We did that already do we really need another older pitcher closer to the end of his career than the best parts? We already have an ace, let’s upgrade the outfield or bullpen, please Cashman let him go! I’m pretty sure he will however, the Yankees interest may just be to drive up the Red Sox price and make sure they can’t upgrade to the team after Halladay and Beckett could end up being a FA because of the cost by Halladay’s extension and Lackey’s contract in the near future I believe.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Correction he will be 33 in the winter that he is a free agent but May of that year he turns 34 so you are basically signing a 34 year old to a 4-6 year deal…
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And didnt Halladay say that he would not sign a extension with any team that traded for him (I know he can be talked out of it), but if he was dead serious about it, it’s not worth giving up Montero, Jackson, Phil or Joba for a one season rental. Let someone else gut there farm system on him.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I thought he said he wouldn’t waive his no trade clause unless someone extended him before the trade or agreed to before the trade… I could be wrong though.
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The Yankees are not giving up those prospects in a deal. The Cliff Lee trade shows us that teams aren’t giving up that many top prospects. Its not happening and it shouldn’t.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
To me the Cliff Lee trade shows that the Indians are retarded because they traded him or nothing… At
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DaveinMD Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Then look at the Santana deal as well. They got nothing back. There is no way the Yanks are trading Montero and Hughes or Joba in a trade.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
So the Indians and Twins are idiots is that anything we didn’t already know? The Indians could have gotten better and so could the Twins, they just chose to sell out of fear.
I never said they would man… In fact my post has nothing to do with trades, I simply commented on not wanting to even sign the guy, Kareem brought up a trade.
Montero isn’t going anywhere in any trade because he is as close to untouchable as you get and Joba has no trade value right now and since Hughes spent all year in the minors he less trade value as well which means none of the 3 will get traded this offseason if they ever do.
If you want to just say look at two trades as examples of people not trading top prospects then look at the Mets and Scott Kazmir.
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DaveinMD Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
The Mets traded Kazmir 5 years ago. Teams are just not unloading prospects for expensive veterans in this economic climate.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Maybe not as many as before but you have to admit that both the Lee deal and the Santana deal were brought on by fear and both could have had more than what they got… Heck the Yankees gave in and said they would put Hughes in the deal, him along would have been better than what they got from the Mets.
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DaveinMD Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
I don’t think that’s true. I know I’ve seen Cashman say Hughes was never in a deal for Santana.
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DaveinMD I agree with that assessment…
Jesus Montero, Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Romine are as close to untouchable as one can get. Those four CAN be the new core of this team for a decade or more. the core we have now is like the core the Yanks had back a few years ago (1960/70s) when they lost about five guys to age and retirement. This is close to happening again…Mo, Posada, Jeter, Andy and A-Rod, five guys that need to be replaced all within a five or six year spread.
As much as I was against the Santana deal, I am just a bit less so for Halladay, but not much.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
I disagree on Romine and Joba and Hughes as well to some degree, I think any of the above could be had in a deal and Romine would be the easiest of all to get because of the depth we have at catcher. True Romine is the furthest along but he has good numbers and his trade value at eh catcher position does give the Yankees a piece to maneuver with and I wouldn’t be that shocked if he got traded. Like I said Joba and Hughes don’t have a high enough trade value to actually trade right now but if the right deal came along to get a starter (IE Felix Hernandez) Then Hughes or Joba one at least would be gone in a heart beat.
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I’m pretty sure it is… They offered Hughes but wouldn’t give extra stuff the Twins wanted after Hughes so the trade was done at that point but he was offered.
Either way the point still remains the same both the Twins and Indians made terrible moves and they could have easily gotten better deals had they waited.
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DaveinMD Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
It was reported that they did, but Cashman said that was never true. Either way, teams just aren’t offering prospects like they used to. That’s why the Phillies traded for Lee and not Halladay. They weren’t willing to pay the exorbitant cost.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
You can’t be sure either way because Cashman could just be posturing saying he never included him… Phil is a guy who needs a good mental state after all.
Yes but you aren’t getting my point, Lee should have been a cheaper option because he isn’t the same pitcher Halladay is and both are in their 30s but the Phillies should have had to give up more than they did, the Indians low balled themselves because they were scared if they said no they would have to either pick up his option or let him go in the offseason… They should have and could have gotten more… That’s more dumb front office moves than people not giving up top prospects… I mean they actually got one of the Brewers top prospects and that was only to get CC for a half year, the Phillies got Lee for 1.5 years with the option.
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I’D GIVE UP Zach Macallister, Austin Jackson, maybe a top LH arm like Bleich, Dunn or Wilkens DeLArosa but would not give up Romine or Montero or the top kids we signed this year in what I think will end up a really great class.
Halladay is worth giving 3-4 prospects for but not worth giving the very best young talent, especially the catchers.
Frankly, I think Yankees have too much pitching depth in the farm system and could give some of it away so others can develop.
Wonder if Christian Garcia & Alan Horne still have any trade value?
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
It’s not worth having to give up 3-4 prospects when you consider his age and extension he will sign that will take him up to 40 years.
I agree we have a lot of pitching depth but not too much because we don’t have any top flight arms in our system, we just have a bunch of middle to back of the rotation starters and some middle relievers and possible setup men. That is one of the reasons I think we should sign Chapman, I know he is a long shot to develop all the way into an ace but the Yankees have no current arms in the minors with that high of a ceiling so it’s worth the risk.
Trade value for Garcia Maybe, Horne none!
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DaveinMD Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Manny Baneullos (sp?) is a high ceiling pitching prospect. Brackman could be as well if he could ever get his shit together. I’m almost ready to give up on Betances as such a prospect.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I already have given up on both of those guys as “ace” potential starters… Betances was always a long shot anyway and neither of them will probably be anymore than mid to back end starters and that’s only if they ever make it to major leagues, and between injuries (Betances TJ surgery) and command problems both look like long shots to even do that. I mean come on, neither have even gotten out of A ball yet… It’s not like they got to Scranton before trouble set in…
Manny Banuelos is a very interesting prospect but he is so small that I am not sure his body will hold up and if it does I want to see how his stuff matches up with major league hitters. He is thought of as a top arm for sure but I don’t think you can put his potential alongside Chapman’s at all.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
I also would like to see him (Banuelos) pitch more than 1 inning in Tampa and see how he takes the step up…
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I don’t think that many teams view our 5′11-6 foreign pitchers as highly as Yankee fans do, how many of that type REALLY makes it big?
Before Steroids, Pedro was a skinny mini throwing 91-92 and after steroids, he was back throwing 90-91-92. Many of these foreign kids were taking them, don’t expect Pedro style results when this group still weighs 170-180 at age 23 instead of 195-200 like they all were 7-8 years ago.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
That is my question as well, I mean right now the guy is 155 pounds or so, hard to assume he will hold up enough to make it that long. Not to mention he throws 90-92 with reports he touches 95, we have confirmed a 100 MPH from Chapman huge difference!
Also Banuelos is only 18 years old and therefore much harder pitcher to predict his development even more so than Chapman.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
I meant my question as well by questioning his height and weight issues not steroids… I really doubt Pedro took steroids otherwise he probably wouldn’t have broken down as quick as he did.
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you never know about kid pitchers with arm issues.I’m still hoping Alan Horn makes it back next season, Garcia too.I’m ready to give up on Humberto Sanchez though! LOL
I’M THINKING KONTOS MAY HAVE BITTEN THE DUST ALSO.HE’S NO SPRING CHICKEN EITHER.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Horne I have no faith in he is getting older and hasn’t really made it up the ranks of the minors that well… Garcia I have some hope for but again I’m not holding my breath.
It was very unfortunate what happened to Kontos, I don’t think he had much chance of being much more than a number 4 or 5 starter anyway though so I’m not crying from a baseball perspective.
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ACTUALLY, STEROIDS MAKES YOU BREAK DOWN QUICKER.Look at a picture of Pedro as a Dodger and then a few years later.His head is twice as big.He took them, everybody on that Island did.It was common, everybody wanted the money and the edge.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Barry Bonds and Clemens disagree with it making you break down quicker…
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HORNE ACTUALLY WAS TrIPLE a WHEN HE GOT HURT AND VERY CLOSE TO THE MAJORS.He was good at a low level at the end of this season.Might surprise next spring.If not it’s over.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
He was in Scranton for 32 IP and had a 5+ ERA…
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leftylarry Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:00 am
That was with the dead arm that I believe ended up in surgery.He was good at the end of the this season and was pain free.Let’s hope it was just a blip and he’s back 100%.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:07 am
He only got to triple A once and had a 5 ERA so how was he close to coming up? This year he pitched as high as Trenton at the end of the year and in 15.1 IP he had an 11+ ERA…
Horne has no consistent amazing work to impress me enough to think he can suddenly respond without injury or occurrence.
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Romine is secretly their top prospect.They love him and Higashioka.Think both are ML catchers who will hit eventually.Montero is a hitter with a good arm.I see corner OF in his future.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
I know Montero isn’t a long term catcher but I really don’t see them coveting Romine as highly as him or Hughes… I also don’t think the team looks at Joba as they once did and I don’t think they value him as highly as Hughes or Romine at this point but they aren’t going to sell low on him.
I don’t think they will trade Romine for nothing but if he is the difference in a big trade I think he will be traded.
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I’m afraid of Joba.I’d let him go in a deal for a good pitcher.If Joba gets expensive I wouldn’t give him big bucks long term off a GREAT contract year.
ROmine isn’t going anywhere.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
The point is you can’t trade him now because no team looks at him as a starter so you won’t be able to trade him for anyone good… You have to hope he bounces back and hope his velocity comes back!
I totally agree, he reminds me of pitchers who save their bodies until a contract year and then go all out for the bucks and then start saving their arms again.
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HE MAY NEVER BE A STARTER.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Stop capitalizing… Please…
Fine, if he never becomes a starter guess what he still has the same value he does right now, except maybe at that point you actually put him in the pen and let him develop that way in which case he would be more valuable… He is only 23-24 and under team control for the next few years you have time to develop him to either a starter or reliever but either way he will have more value if you wait, right now he is no more than a middle reliever with 1 pitch and no control AKA Jose Veras, no one wants that!
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I’d like to get HAlladay just to hear the Red SOX squeal.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Because that logic worked out with Jose Contreras so well, trading or signing someone because another team may get them isn’t a good business decision, we should get younger not older and we already have an ace… Who cares if Burnett wants his mentor back, there both in their 30s I don’t want to deal with both at the end of there careers.
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I don’t disagree and frankly I’m not totally convinced Hughes can succeed as a starter either.He throws more like low 90’s with a straight fastball that has little movement, a mediocre cut fastball and a good slow curve when he starts.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
I have said the same for a while and it doesn’t help that the kid is as mentally strong as a piece of straw, he wilts under pressure and that isn’t the mark of a top line starter, I still value Joba higher than Hughes because of the fact I have seen Joba throw 96+ as a starter before and believe he can again.
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MArk McGwire and a million other guys agree.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Canseco played 17 years…
Millions is a little high, the fact is steroids react different on everyone in the long term but more than not prolong their careers.
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Hasn’t since the injury.I think AJ Burnett used the Halladay rap on him and he’s been protecting his arm ever since.I also think he’s a mental case that needs to be pumped up to throw hard and gets the adrenalin rush as a reliever.
Pettitte will be gone after this season.Yankees need one more big time starter to protect the investment in CC & AJ.
In a couple of years when MAriano & Posada are gone, money will be there, that’s why you spend on pitching now.You can ALWAYS find a hitter.Not so a top starting pitcher.
Halladay probably helps you with your Burnett investment also.
Screw Granderson and his 140 strikeouts a year.I’d rather use the prospects and money for HAlladay or a similar pitching stud.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Halladay is almost 33 years old and will want a contract extension that takes him to his 40th birthday!! You can’t trade prospects for that, especially when he is a free agent in a year (and even then I wouldn’t sign him). I agree we need another top notch starter for the future but it’s for the future (after this year) we need someone who can be around for a long time not someone who is going to age quickly at the end.
Granderson will strikeout less than 100 times if he hits 2nd or lower in the lineup and he is inserted to a patient lineup like the Yankees full of veterans. The coaches will get him to stop swinging for the fences and his strikeouts will go down and his average will go up. Also his walks have risen every year over the last 4 years so that means he is getting better at swinging at strikes and that means he can really learn to be a patient hitter in our lineup. Not to mention his D will help everyday in CF and since it means either Gardner or Melky will play LF Granderson will also upgrade the LF defense which is better than Halladay every 5 days as the number 2 starter on the team.
I say get Granderson and sign Chapman and then next year when Pettitte retires make a trade for a Verlander or Hernandez… Some young starter who’s contract is coming to an end and the team is willing to sell, we have the talent and it should only be worth more next year, wait and get younger…
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COtreras had a lot of ability.Joe Torre was terrible with pitchers.Has no patience.Before Torre and to an extent Posada were here, YAnkees rarely had issues with pitchers not able to pitch in NY.All of a sudden it’s an issue to pitch in NY for Some types.
GIrardi comes in and now everybody can pitch in NY again.Studs like CC, weak fragile guys like AJ, Bullpen guys from anywhere.etc.Girardi handled the pitching staff much better than Torre ever did.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Doesn’t matter!!!!!
We outbid so the Sox wouldn’t get him and it backfired no matter how it got that way!!!
New York still gets to AJ he admitted as much during the playoffs…
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I don’t think so and I had a lot of experience with them as a former race horse trainer.They were legal for horses.They help tremendously but when you start breaking down, it’s bad.Joints go, ligaments pop, tendons tear.One thing after another.
Look at AROD this year out of nowhere with the hip.That’s an usual probably steroid related injury that suddenly is showing pu in baseball like never before.
You think Dominicans Sosa, Manny & Popi were taking them and Pedro wasn’t? Guaranteed he was.Sucked before he took them and sucked again when he stopped and Mets got him.You don’t go from 96-97 to 89-90 because you got a year or 2 older.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:05 am
This conversation is done… to say Alex’s hip injury is related to steroids is dumb, Chase Utley and Mike Lowell both had similar injuries did they take steroids? Even if you say yes this conversation is done!
You can not know for sure his injury is form anything so I don’t want to speculate and you just make it sound like you know for a fact what it is.
Also bringing up A “Dominicans take steroids thing” is a bit borderline racist and I don’t want to be involved with that kind of conversation the internet, you never know who you could offend and not mean too.
Also look at Mike Mussina… smaller power pitchers break down quicker than other power guys who are physically bigger pitchers and can handle the strain of pitching all the time.
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Granderson’s fielding was supposedly abysmal last season also.Chapman is going to want a lot of money.Of course I’d like to get him but wouldn’t blame Cashman for not giving him huge bucks when he’s a one pitch advanced pitcher.
Granderson didn’t strikeout 140 times just last season, he’s done it often.With Granderson, Swisher, Posada, AROD, TEX , who’s going to put the ball in play?
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:20 am
He has a good arm and is extremely fast at the very worst he takes bad routes (I don’t know if he does or he doesn’t) and if that is the case then he is a faster Melky with as strong or stronger an arm which means he is an upgrade in CF and his bat (hitting HRs) takes the place of letting Damon’s bat go and that lets either Gardner or Melky play LF (I hope maybe Cameron) and no matter what they hit their defense will be better than Damon’s was so we are still a better team by adding Granderson even in both worst case scenario’s where he plays like last year, but if he gets more patients and starts to hit with less thinking HR in his swing he could be one of the top 5 CFers in the league and he is 28 next year.
He has atruck out 141 times twice and no more, I know Granderson’s numbers… In Between those 2 years he had a great year hitting over .300 with 24 Hrs and 24 doubles and 14 or so triples.
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I spend a lot of time on that Island.Everybody knows they were all taking steroids.A trainer at a hotel told me the 16 year old kids who used to weigh 155 were weighing 180.I’m too old and too successful to worry about anybody calling me racist when I tell the truth.
They caught at least 100 guys using them and we know about what? 10 names.How many didn’t they catch, another 100? Tejada took them too.How many SS’s are hitting 40 HR’s now?
Anybody break down faster than Vlad Guererro did?
Many if not all the DOminican players were juicing.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:21 am
I didn’t call you a racist, I said a conversation that gets stuck on race can offend people I am done….
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You know for sure Lowell wasn’t taking them? He might have been taking them or something else for his testicular cancer (yes Steroids can cause cancer) that weakened him.
And, no, it’s not implausible, far from it, that AROD’S injury was brought about form previous steroid use.We’re all programed to be a certain size and to get in certain condition under normal rest/recovery working out sessions.When those are skewered by steroid use, bad things happen.Joints and ligaments are developed often past what they’re genetically programed for and balance from one group to another can be off and therefore allow injury.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:25 am
No I don’t know for sure he didn’t but you don’t know for sure he did and therefor it’s all here say and something I don’t care to discuss… I’m done!
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I didn’t know the Dominican Republic was a race.I thought it was a country, an Island where they are very poor and everything is about baseball and everybody(not really everybody but many)took steroids.To not look at who took them, that we know of and see, Manny, AROD (Dominican connections)Papi, Tejada and not think they were juicing big time in that community is not to be realistic.I’d bet big money that Pedro was also.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:54 am
Dominican’s are people from the Dominican Republic so those would be the people you would offend with “Dominican’s do steroids… all of them!” I don’t know Dominicans visit the site but I don’t know they don’t so I don’t want to go further.
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I can live with Granderson, just not in love with him.Trade Melky for Adam DUnn’s 50 HR’s next season and I can live very nicely with GArdner in CF.If DUnn hasn’t hurt his arm, he has one of the best in baseball, though he’s a mediocre OF’er.I think he had 25 assists one seaosn in RF a few yers ago.
He has to be the least appreciated player in baseball.He’s always on bad teams unprotected and hits 40 HR’s.He’s hit 284 HR’s in the past 7 seasons, has over 300 overall.He just turned 30 years old this month.He could end up with 600 HR’s easy in YAnkee Stadium playing as a DH in his mid 30’s and he makes very fair money.
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Melky for Dunn? You do know the Nationals would have to be overwhelmed for Dunn to trade for him right?
Stick with Melky in LF (Dunn isn’t a real big defensive upgrade) or sign Mike Cameron and stick with Matsui as the DH for 1 year and then after next season Adam’s contract will be up and the Yankees can sign Dunn to a contract to DH at that point.
2011 lineup
Jeter, SS
Granderson, CF
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Dunn, DH/LF
Posada, C/DH
Cano, 2B
Swisher, RF
Cameron/Jackson, LF
You wouldn’t have to trade anyone for Dunn, still get the last bit of production out of Matsui and if Jackson develops enough he takes Cameron’s spot in LF and we still have a good defensive LF which is what the team needs.
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Baby Jesus will cry if Jesus gets traded…
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The other Chris H Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 1:05 am
So would I…
I really see no way he gets traded… I mean the only deal you would even consider him in is for Justin Upton but since I think Montero will be a more productive offensive player it’s hard to say I would trade him for Upton, especially when we could just sign Upton.
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