Through the 14-1 drubbing the Yankees took at the hands of the Red Sox yesterday, one theme became clear from the post game interviews. AJ Burnett and Jorge Posada are (still) having trouble getting on the same page again with game calling and pitch selection. Here’s some quotes from the Yank’s MLB.com website:
Though the Yankees downplayed it, Burnett again clashed with Jorge Posada, shaking off several pitches as they struggled to find a fluid rhythm.
“I didn’t have a lot of conviction in my pitches today,” Burnett said. “I threw a lot of balls that I didn’t want to throw. That’s pretty much what the outcome was.”
Burnett liked what he saw from his curveball early, especially because he had trouble throwing his fastball to the corners. Posada thought the Red Sox might be getting wise to his sequences, and either way, the results weren’t pretty.
“I tried to get on the same page as him,” Posada said. “At times we were, and then we weren’t a lot of times. It’s frustrating, because, obviously, he wants to throw a certain pitch and I want to throw another one. When they’re hitting like that, it’s tough to get on the same page.”
That first part in bold is the main problem with having a pitcher and catcher who can’t get on the same page. If a pitcher doesn’t trust a given pitch on a certain day or in a certain spot, he’ll throw it tentatively and wind up making a lousy pitch with nothing on it in terms of movement. This is why catchers shouldn’t try to impose their will on a game, because it’s ultimately self-defeating. Jorge will at times call for a pitch that isn’t working over and over to try to get it going for a pitcher. If it works, great. But most pitchers know individual pitches will come and go over the course of a game, so they prefer to scrap it and try again later.
Here’s some more from LoHud
By no means do I think Posada and Burnett work particularly well together because they don’t. But when asked about pitch selection, Posada put it well.
“I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.”
Look at Burnett’s history. This is a stubborn guy who tends to blow up at times and let games get away from him. That is who he is. He kept saying after the game how good he thought his curveball was. From what I saw, the Red Sox were hammering that pitch, just like they have all season.
Burnett’s a two-pitch guy with an occasional change-up. It’s not like any catcher has a lot to pick from.
Does that strike you as Jorge contradicting what he said in the MLB.com piece? Why would Posada get frustrated if Burnett’s the guy in charge in his mind? And all of a sudden AJ Burnett is the ’stubborn’ one when Posada has that reputation going back over 10 years? Mike Mussina and Randy Johnson refused to throw to Posada, and other pitchers have complained about him for years. All too common poor analysis by PA there. It’s OK for a pitcher to be stubborn, the best ones usually are. Its a catcher’s job to help the pitcher through the game. The pitcher is the one who gets the runs charged to him and the loss, not the catcher. Some pitchers like a take-charge catcher like Jorge, Pettitte has been a big fan of his for years. Andy doesn’t want to think out there, so he likes that Jorge does it for him. But everyone isn’t Andy, and even Andy needed Jose Molina to get back on track this year.
The reality is there’s always a pull and push between attacking a hitter’s weakness or paying attention to their swings (what Posada wants) and a pitcher simply attacking hitters with his best stuff (what Burnett wants) Both theories have their merits, but a power pitcher with elite stuff like AJ Burnett can beat a guy with a fastball even if that the batter knows it’s coming. Even location isn’t as important to a pitcher like AJ, he’ll get away with mistakes if he keeps hitters on their heels with his outstanding stuff. But all too often, Jorge simply doesn’t allow this to happen and/or seems to get in the way. When AJ’s on, you or I could catch him. Its the times when he’s struggling that the relationship between him and Jorge becomes a problem. The trouble is, you don’t know when those times are until he’s already out on the mound.
It’s not April or May anymore, so we can’t just tell AJ to ‘get over it’ or stick both of them in a room and tell them to make it work. We’re looking at the playoffs, and Girardi is going to have to decide whether Jorge’s bat is worth the downside when AJ isn’t right. I’ve contended that Posada shouldn’t be catching Burnett since A) They’ve had trouble working together on and off all year, and B) Jorge has all sorts of trouble handling his breaking pitches, many of which wind up as wild pitches that advance runners and lead to Runs scored. AJ Burnett has the most Wild Pitches he has had in any season of his career, and there’s still 5 weeks to go. Is he all of a sudden more wild now than he was as a 25 year old? There’s not a scout alive who would argue that.
They’re just not a match. You can cite the Yankee Stadium game against the Sox, the record Burnett has had with other Yankee catchers (small sample) or the long discredited CERA. But the simple fact remains, Jorge and Burnett have had trouble getting on the same page all year and nothing’s changed.
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This was a day game after a night game… Girardi had the perfect “excuse” to sit Posada. Instead he started him. I”m wondering why. Was it because he didn’t want to give the perception that he didn’t have faith in Jorge? or was it because he wanted Burnett & Posada to work to get on the same page? I think it was the former. Giradi knows posada BETTER than anyone else. He worked with him as a young catcher way back.
This crap can lose us the pennant.
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Steve S. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
The stuff about wanting Jorge’s bat in the lineup strikes me as the most absurd. Is Jorge going to score 9 runs for us? People may not like it, but you have to cater to your pitchers. Baseball is all about the guy on the mound. No bat is worth the damage that can occur when a pitcher is a little off. And in the bigs against a good hitting team like the Sox, that’s all it takes.
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Basil Fomeen Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:55 am
His problems with Mussina, R.Johnson & even Clemens were documented. He was always a mediocre catcher and IMO his skills are eroding.
I was thrilled when the Sox picked up VMart with the intention of catching him… his catching acumen is not even close to Varitek. and IMO the Sox slide coincidently occurred with this move, among other things, but I think that was big.
I’m not a Posada fan. we won 89 games last year without him. His first full year as a catcher (2000) we won the Championship, that year we won 87 games… just saying. IDK.
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The minute I read, prior to the game, that Posada was penciled in to catch, I was back shocked and immediately got a really bad feeling, a portent of bad things to come…
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis and the comments above.
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The Yankees are 30 games over .500 with Jorge as the starting catcher. I’m not going to get into this again, but I did notice you left out AJ’s quote from the story, which paints a different picture. Also, AJ has been exactly this guy for his entire career.
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Steve S. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 10:33 am
I quoted from top to bottom, without skipping anything in between. If you have something that argues for your side, then post it and we can debate it. But alluding to me attempting to mislead people isn’t going to wash.
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DaveinMD Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 10:53 am
Here is the quote you left out. I wonder why.
(Posada) calls fine back there. It’s just a matter of me throwing what I want to throw.
“There’s no pattern there. I’ve had a great run now with Jorge. So there’s no fingers to point but at me.”
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Steve S. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
I tell you why, I didn’t believe that part. I think that’s just BS and him being a good teammate, which he is. There are also legal issues involved with blogs quoting too much of a story, so you have to take what you need and nothing more.
Now explain to me why he has a career high in Wild Pitches this season, and is on pace to shatter his previous mark, since Jorge is perfectly fine back there and they work so well together.
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DaveinMD Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Is Posada great at blocking pitches? No. But he’s good enough to have caught 14 shutout innings two weeks ago. It amazes me how you blame Posada every time a pitcher shits the bed. Pitchers make pitches. Catchers catch them.
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
At least 7 of those WP are not with Jorge, but with the backups, so I would argue it has plenty to do with AJ.
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The other Chris H Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Jorge kind of threw AJ under the bus while AJ picked Posada up, if anything it just points more towards Posada being arrogant and to prideful! He is a pre-madonna because he thinks he is one of the greatest catchers of all time and he always has! Mike Mussina, Burnett, Chamberlain, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens and Pettitte have all had major problems with this.
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Basil Fomeen Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 10:38 am
They were 16 games over last year with a formidable rotation of Rasner, Ponson among others.. Was Mussina finally a 20 game winnner a result of his absence???
IMO the Yanks would 30 games over with a combo of Molina/Cervelli. His bat is ok, but the Yanks are not a great team this year BECAUSE of Jorge.
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More absurdity. Its so funny how Posada gets blamed every time a pitcher sucks. He never gets credit when he doesn’t. Pitchers make pitches, not catchers. Burnett didn’t pitch well. That is all. It wasn’t Posada’s fault that Burnett missed is target by 6 feet. It wasn’t Posada’s fault that Burnett couldn’t throw strikes at all. It wasn’t Posada’s fault that Burnett kept throwing hanging curveballs. But people will just make him an easy target because it fits into some preconceived notion. Its a crock of dung.
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Steve S. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:08 am
“It wasn’t Posada’s fault that Burnett kept throwing hanging curveballs.”
OK, put yourself in AJ’s shoes. You catcher has allowed more Wild Pitches on you than any other in your career, most of them between his legs on your nasty curveball. Do you think you might compensate by throwing it a bit higher, meaning you’re going to “hang” more than usual?
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Old Ranger Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“It’s a catcher’s job to help the pitcher through the game.”
That’s a possibility…in fact, the more I thought about it, the more it was likely.
I (vaguely) remember doing that myself. If there is a doubt in your mind…you’re f–ked. No matter how hard one tries to throw the pitch the way it should be thrown…it doesn’t happen. One can never except “Doubt” in any endeavor that must be done exactly right…any golfer out there knows this is a fact.
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Basil Fomeen Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Precisely… and that’s why ultra-perfectionists like Mussina, RJ and Clemens had their difficulties with him. They didn’t need that extra concern regarding their catcher. It may seem small, but I don’t think it is.
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There is NO time left in the season, for AJ and Jorge to try to get on the same page…If it’s NOT working now, then it probably won’t work. Have Jose Molina catch AJ for the rest of the season, as long as AJ feels more comfortable with Jose…Everybody should put EGOS aside at this point. If Molina catches AJ, then have Posada DH. The Yankee lineup is still very strong even with Molina batting 8th or 9th.
AJ and Posada are clearly NOT working, so Girardi and Eiland should NOT force the issue.
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We need AJ pitching like he did vs. Boston, at the Stadium….If AJ pitching to Molina, gives us the AJ we need for the postseason, then Posada needs to suck it up, and take a seat on the bench.
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Who caught AJ in that game? Pretty sure it was Jorge.
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Steve B. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm
True Moshe Dayan, but you’re looking at this with one eye closed
….AJ has not been very good overall, pitching to Jorge…we can’t afford only ONE great game by AJ/Jorge, when they give us several bad games together.
Have AJ pitch to Molina.
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Here are the numbers.
Burnett was 8-3 with a 2.84 ERA with Posada catching. Burnett had a bad game that’s on Burnett. Its foolish to blame yesterday on Posada.
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Chris H. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
The only problem I have with the Jorge is that, when he’s catching, it seems like a pitcher’s k/9 goes down while his bb/9 goes up. I’m not sure why that is, exactly. Burnett has been doing a pretty good job with him, though, so I’m not really sure that Jorge is the problem here. I do think it’s primarily a Burnett issue and a Boston issue since he has pitched well against the rest of ht league.
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The other Chris H Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Because he refuses to let pitchers pitch their own games and they end up throwing pitches they aren’t confident in!
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DaveinMD Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:43 pm
What nonsense. Catchers have negligible effect on pitching results. Jorge is no different.
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The other Chris H Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 pm
If you refuse to put another finger down and go out to the mound to make sure he doesn’t throw anything but the pitch you want called it affects the mind set of the pitcher on the mound. I have seen it with Aj and Chamberlain they end up getting more focused on Posada calling signs than they do the guys batting and they lay in some cookies.
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AJ and Chamberain are somewhat a like when it comes to the mental part of the game, both are strong personalities who understand they are responsible for the loss or the win and want to call there own game and it drives Posada crazy! Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens are the same way and it killed Posada to catch them, he refuses to give up control of the game. He wants to be the “one” calling every pitch he just wants someone to see the finger and throw. Some pitchers that works for others it doesn’t and Posada has never been a great “people person”. He has also never been a good ball in the dirt blocker and AJ does that to get strike outs, just make Molina his personal catcher!
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Clemens loved throwing to Jorge. So does Pettitte. Both have always said that.
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The other Chris H Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:09 pm
They can say what they want but I have seen Pettitte and Jorge get into power struggles on the mound at times this year and I saw the same with Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina and Roger in past seasons, you can hug on Posada all you want that’s fine but I watch the games as you do and I see the way he handles getting shook off. Guys like Andy just don’t shake enough for it to be a problem every start like a Chamberlain or Burnett does.
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“I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.” That is a COMPLETE BS QUOTE! I have seen Posada throw the same fingers down 4 and 5 times in a row get shook off again and run out to the mound to make them throw that pitch, he doesn’t “suggest” shit he wants to be in control at all times! YOU AREN’T AS GOOD AS YOU THINK YOU ARE JORGE!
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Chris H. Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Ha, we have some passionate readers. Awesome last line, lol.
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The other Chris H Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:07 pm
As a player I think Jorge is has a great bat, he is also a very very good player overall but he isn’t the hall of fame caliber player he thinks he is and some Yankee fans think he is. He has the rings and a pretty good bat but not Hall worthy and his catching ability was never great, but in his head he is Johnny Bench, Pudge Rodriguez and Yogi all rolled into one and you can see it in how he handles himself.
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