The idea has been kicked around many places lately. With Wang scheduled to start tomorrow and Hughes pitching too well to send down to the minors, how about a 6 man rotation? The overall concept is pretty simple, just use your best arms as much as you can to win games. Hughes doesn’t help us by pitching in Scranton. The execution is easy, pitchers would take 2 days off, have a throw day, then take another two days off and pitch. When there are scheduled off days, you can skip Hughes and use him in between starts in multiple inning stints out of the bullpen to keep him sharp. If there’s a doubleheader you have a huge edge over the opposing team, who in many cases will be scrounging for a starter. The dirty little secret about 6-man rotations is most of the time, nothing changes for the pitchers. On weeks when there’s a scheduled off day (which is most of the season) pitchers are on this schedule already. On weeks when there is no off day or a double header is scheduled, Hughes gets a start. Looking at the rest of the schedule and factoring in off days, Phil would get another 10 starts this year in a six man setup. There would also be long stretches where he would be used out of the bullpen, accumulating more innings and valuable MLB experience. All totaled, he should log around 120 IP for the Yanks this season, which would put him on track to be our 5th starter next year. If the Yanks felt it necessary, they could send him to Winter Ball for roughly another 30 innings. But I doubt they would do that. 120 this year will put him on track for 150-160 next year, which is fine for a 5th starter.
I’m not opposed to it, but I’d rather do an old school bullpen as we were discussing the other day. But I’ve always been intrigued by 6 man rotations and possibly skipping guys over and using them out of the bullpen here and there. Sounds radical, but its really not. Its what you would do in the playoffs when you are trying like heck to win every game. It means you get to use your best arms more often, and in bullpen spots that could be decisive, high leverage situations. So it not only solves the Wang issue, it also lengthens the bullpen and the solves innings restrictions on Hughes and Joba for this year. Voila, all of our issues are addressed to some extent in one fell swoop.
Its the kind of thing you can do when you have a surplus of quality pitching, which is extremely rare but happens to be the case with the 2009 Yankees. But its not the first time the Yankees have an an excess of quality starters. Believe it or not, the 1939 Yanks had a makeshift SEVEN man rotation. Nobody got more than 28 starts, most had 15-20, and they were arguably the greatest team in the history of Baseball. Biggest run differential ever, by a lot. The 1939 Yankee were +411 in run differential and the only team over 400 in Baseball history. To put that in some context, the past 5 World Series Champions were anywhere from +19 to +210. The 1927 Yanks were + 376, the 1998 Yanks were +309 and the 1975 Reds were +254 . The surplus of their quality young arms and McCarthy’s use of them was a big factor in their dominance that season.
The main thing working against this however, is that it’s different from how things are currently done across Baseball. Orthodoxies are strong in Baseball, and most of them are there for good reasons. Girardi hasn’t earned the credibility to try something this (seemingly) new. If he had a few World Series titles under his belt, people would take his word for it. But he doesn’t, so stepping this far out of the Baseball mainstream could prove fatal for his managerial career if things went badly. The media would destroy him if this failed or someone got injured.
But everyone thought LaRussa was nuts when he started the lefty-righty bullpen specialization in the 80s. Then he won a WS and everyone copied him. The fact that its not commonly done this way in Baseball could be what makes it work, having pitchers with fresh arms heading into the post season facing pitchers who are flagging after a long season. Innovators always have an edge over the guys doing things the old way, in any sport. Its the history of sports in many ways. I’d prefer to send Hughes to the bullpen, but if Girardi went with a 6 man, I’d support him.
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So you would rather have Hughes starting games than CC, AJ, Wang or Joba? No way, Hughes is currently the weakest pitcher in that rotation. Also, you mentioned that Phil would get about 120 IP this season which means he couldn’t go the full 200 innings next year. That might be fine for a 5th starter but how can you assume we don’t lose a starting pitcher or two next season to injury? We could get stuck in a situation where Hughes has hit is inning limits and two other guys are hurt. Suddenly we have a 2 man rotation and it turns into 2007 all over again. Don’t screw around with the pitchers and just let Hughes go down and get consistent innings until the inevitable injury or Joba hits his innings limits.
Like I’ve said before, this is the year of Joba and getting him settled into his spot in the rotation. He should be good for 200 or so innings next year. As long as we can stay the course, we can slot Hughes into the back of the rotation next season and let him take his lumps. We all saw in 2007 what can happen when you put two inexperienced guys in the rotation back to back
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Steve S. Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
I don’t think the difference between Hughes and most of the rotation is huge. He’s pitching as well or better than AJ, Pettitte and Joba at this point. Wang has been flat out awful, and was bad again today, so that’s not even arguable.
The biggest gap is CC, and you’re talking about him losing maybe 2-3 starts in exchange for having everyone fresh for the playoffs. I don’t think that will be the difference in the AL East, and it may actually be the difference in our favor to have everyone strong down the stretch, facing opponents who are wearing down.
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
I love Hughes as much as the next guy, but he has not been as good as any of those guys (except Wang, of course). With this bullpen, the fact that he has pitched past the 5th twice is an issue. Until these last two weeks, you were pretty sure Andy and Joba would get into the 6th, and AJ would get to the 7th. It is a big difference.
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I don’t see a downside to trying it. If it doesn,t seem to be working you have alternative, just try something else.
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Chip Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 9:14 am
The downside is that while trying it, you might cost Joba and CC a couple of starts. It’s not like the Yankees are running away with this division and can afford to get cute, they need every game. Also, you’re screwing with the development of Hughes. Even if it were to not blow up, Hughes would be limited to 150 innings next year which means we’d have to use an inferior pitcher in those innings next season down the stretch. It really comes down to, would this team be better if a guy like CC pitched 200 innings or 220 innings? And when you have a guy with his arm, you want him throwing as much as he safely can
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Totally agree with Chip here. The reason teams do not do it is because it takes starts from your best guys and gives them to your 6th best pitcher.
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It’s a horrible idea.
Maybe Pettitte should be resting, instead of pitching injured to make more money based on reaching benchmarks in his contract.
Then we’d have 5 pitchers and could worry about it later on.
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Couldn’t agree more wit U Stevei…
I’ve been sayin they should go 2 a 6-man since da start of da season. It keeps everybody fresh towards da rest of da season – isn’t that just as important as “having your best pitchers throw more often? – & solves da inn limit problem 4 Hughes & Joba.
But sadly, it’s too creative 4 these mainstream old-school baseball shitloaders, & as U noted, Joe would get killed if he did it.
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Some times conventional wisdom becomes the norm because it is the right move. Taking innings from your best to give to your 6th best is terrible baseball.
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Steve S. Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
OK, but explain the 1939 Yankees. Their ace got 28 starts, their #2 got 25 and they were the most dominant team that ever played the game. Joe McCarthy was a ‘horrible’ Baseball manager?
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
A few points- pitching has changed a lot since then, and we have learned a lot since then about pitching. Pitchers were not as routine oriented back then, which makes playing around with a rotation easier. Also, are you sure they used a 6 man? I find it a lot more likely that they had a bunch of injuries/dead arm periods, which led to the starts being spread out among a number of players. Look at the 2004 Yankees, who had a 5 man rotation, but had a similar spread.
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Its not a horrible idea right now. Hughes is better served facing big league hitters instead of wasting innings in AAA. If his fastball plays up in the bullpen without sacrificing too much command he could be a real weapon. Besides, if anyone thinks the Yankees starting 5 will each make every scheduled start for the rest of the season, they really haven’t been paying attention to baseball. Chances are if you go 6 man and then use Hughes as a swing guy during his downtime you’ll still need to get an extra 4-5 starts due to injuries. So take Steve’s 120 innings projection and add another 25 innings or so with this plan and that would leave Hughes exactly where he should be.
That being said, no way the team breaks the bank for CC and AJ and then decides to go to a 6 man rotation. Mostly likely scenario is one of the 2-5 starters gets hurt for some time and Hughes gets his innings there and when Joba starts to approach his limit.
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It would never happen in this day and age, with the salaries being what they are and incentive-laden contracts.
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Would it be a bad idea to keep him around to back-up CMW for this start and then use him to skip Andy one start (give him time to rest his back), then send him down?
Six man rotations are a non-starter (as stated above), take away starts from your best (unless hurt) doesn’t make since. Of course, there was the same argument when the 5 man rotation came up. If we had six proven top line starters, that would be different but, we don’t.
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It’s a fun idea to try to get Phil & Joba to their proper innings limits but taking starts away from CC seems like a bad call. If AJ and Wanger get rolling as well, then it’s pure crazy b/c you want the ball in their hands as much as possible. It’s kinda like batting A-Rod and Teixeira ninth to get more abs for Gardner.
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“It’s kinda like batting A-Rod and Teixeira ninth to get more abs for Gardner.”
Very good Tom…
Both scenarios are ridiculous. With as many teams as there are, it is almost impossible to have five very good front line starters on one team let alone six. Very few teams have five, most have two…maybe three.
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