Bryan Hoch comes through with a detailed, quote-laden piece on the never ending Joba Chamberlain debate, chock full of snippets from Joba, Jorge Posada, Brian Cashman, Joe Girardi, and…..Mike Francesa:
The plan had always been that Chamberlain would be returned to starting duty, and eventually he was. Few suggest that Phil Hughes, who is excelling in a similar role, should spend his career in the bullpen. Yet the Chamberlain talk continues; Cashman cannot understand the situation, and he has given up trying.
“Who knows? I’ve got no idea,” Cashman said. “I really don’t have a rational explanation, because I don’t necessarily agree with the opinions out there. Anybody who is a good starter is going to be a hell of a setup guy, I promise you. Anybody who has a plus fastball and a plus secondary pitch would make a great setup guy or closer, in theory. But it’s not the same.”
Now 23, Chamberlain has made 26 Major League starts, going 7-3 with a 3.32 ERA, accompanied by a mildly swelled 1.362 WHIP. Despite decreased velocity and some growing pains, pitching coach Dave Eiland went as far as to call him one of the Yankees’ best starters this season, high praise considering he shares a rotation with CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett.
“He’s been as good as any starter we’ve had — look at the numbers,” Eiland said. “He’s going to stub his toe from time to time; everybody does. But he’s progressing well, he keeps us in virtually every game he pitches, knock on wood.”
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Much was made of Chamberlain’s decreased velocity earlier in the season, though Eiland said that it did not catch him off guard.
“As a starter, your velocity is not going to be as high as it would be as a reliever,” Eiland said. “I saw Jonathan Papelbon in the Minor Leagues as a starter and his velocity isn’t what it is now. We’ve seen Phil Hughes’ velocity jump up. Some guys pitch on adrenaline, some guys pitch on situations and emotions.”
The movement to reinstate Chamberlain to the bullpen raged loudly this month, when the Yankees were without both Brian Bruney and Damaso Marte to injuries — the righty-lefty tandem Cashman has envisioned as locking down the late innings to get the ball to Rivera.
“I think where the Yankees fail against the Red Sox is in two areas,” Francesa said. “One is the proficiency that Boston can move through the seventh, eighth and ninth innings versus the Yankees, and the ability to get situational hits. That’s why the Red Sox are 8-0 against the Yankees, those two reasons.”
The last quote from Mike there is interesting, in that it reflects the feelings of many Yankees fans who want Joba in the bullpen because they believe that is where he will help the 2009 team the most. While I strongly dispute that notion, it should not be a consideration for Brian Cashman even if it is true. The Yankees are in the business of building a team that can win for years to come, and developing Joba as an ace is a key to that plan. Sacrificing his future for the good of the 2009 Yankees is poor management.
Furthermore, as Eiland points out, Joba is a first year starter who will occasionally go through some rough patches. However, as the numbers show us, Joba’s struggles usually do not lead to runs allowed. When he is off, he walks too many batters and throws too many pitches, but he does not allow very many runs. In 26 career starts, he has allowed more than 3 runs 3 times, and has never allowed more than 5 runs. A 3.32 ERA for a starter in his first 26 starts is exceptional, and only further highlights how good Joba can be once he gains some more consistency as a starter.
I highly recommend reading Hoch’s article. It is about as good a take on the issue that you will find.
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Is Marte ever coming back? Is after the All Star Game even a possibility?
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No one really knows. They are being very mysterious regarding that situation.
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JeffG Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Mysterious – that’s a good way to put it. I know he saw Andrews but after that I don’t remember hearing much.
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What debate? Joba is a starter and always was a starter. As for the fastball; check out Coke, Phil and Joba…RP only throw 12/20 pitches and done. For a starter to avg., 93/95 on their fastball means as a BP pitcher they would be hitting about 95/97…most of the time the speed jumps about 2/3 MPH as a BP pitcher.
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Yankee1010 Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Right, there is no debate. The Yanks have been knocked out of postseasons because their starting pitching has been crap. A shutdown bullpen does no good if your starters get rocked.
Plus, there’s the whole issue of him having 3 plus pitches and a developing change-up. Those guys should never be in the pen.
It’s also amazing to me how people see Hughes’ stuff pick up in the pen and don’t realize that hey, it’s a whole lot easier to pitch from the bullpen.
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So if the yankees move Joba back to the bullpen they’ll become better situational hitters?
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Moshe Mandel Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Yup. If he moves to the bullpen, it will shorten the game. This will make the hitters less nervous and allow them to focus better.
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I like Joba in the starting rotation, but I would like to know why guys Like Verlander and Jacckson and Garza and Beckett can sit consistenlt 94-98-and why Joba who diod throw that hard in that great game he had in Fenway cannot do that? if he is not throwing 93-98-how can he dominate good hitting teams like the Sox. Now dont tellme about age because John johnson is about his age and seems to be able to get up abouve 95-consistently-is he hurt? or he is unable to throw thathard? or is just not doing it? I see an ace as someone you know will shut down the opposition on a consistent basis-
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Yankee1010 Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=y&type=4&season=2009
Check that out. Nobody is sitting anywhere close to 98 as a starter. It doesn’t happen.
Verlander’s average: 95.5
Garza’s average: 92.8
Beckett’s average: 94.2
Jackson’s average: 94.4
Chamberlain’s average: 92.4
And yes, there is a difference between a 25 year old pitcher (Johnson) and a 23 year old pitcher (Chamberlain).
A lot of power pitchers build arm strength as the year goes on. They also build arm strength within a game as it goes on and they get looser. That’s certainly the case with Joba.
I wouldn’t get too worked up over the radar gun.
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DaveinMD Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
He lost his fastball after the injury. It was in Verlander’s range before.
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This article is very disturbing to me because they are completely writing off Joba’s loss of velocity. The truth is he was sitting at 96 mph and touching 100 as a starter last year before the injury in in Texas. Now he’s lucky to hit 93. And it wasn’t any higher when he was in the pen last after the injury. Something is wrong and the Yankees don’t even think there is a problem.
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Old Ranger Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
I don’t recall him hitting 100 as a starter (some guns read high). Last year he was using to much effort on his pitches. This year they have tried having him use less effort, he has had a very violent motion…disaster waiting to happen.
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DaveinMD Reply:
June 26th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
If they show it on YES, watch the game he pitched against Beckett last year.
If he’s just at 92, he’s not the elite prospect we thought he was. He just becomes another crafty righty. At 92, he just doesn’t get enough swings and misses. He’s a decent pitcher, but not dominant. Its really that simple.
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